Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...

[Burwood]

RobDickinson said:

I though the 3 used the inductance heating from the motor to warm up the pack?

In very cold conditions heat pumps fall down vs resistive heating (I use 2 heat pumps at home) but for most average cold conditions they are more efficient typically.

Over here the expensive option is to bore pipes into the ground to source higher temps.

[RobDickinson]

Yeah here too but no real need, it gets frosty sometimes here but rarely beyond what a good air source copes with

[Burwood]

I remember the days in Dundas Street, as a student. It was neg 5 C in my bedroom overnight. We had one of those terrible student let landlords. Our law lecturer (a QC) told us legally at those temperatures we could burn the furniture

[Mr2Mike]

RobDickinson said:

Its odd Tesla still uses resistive heating when it has an ac compressor already, most EVs are using heat pumps now

Probably cheaper to use a resistive heater and a non-reversible heatpump for cooling, a strong incentive on a "budget" model..

[DonkeyApple]

Anyone recall how those jumper things used to work? Arguably a bit too low tech and environmental but maybe someone could create a WiFi enabled one that does a load of completely unecassary things, ship it in using as big a carbon footprint as possible and give it a cool name like iJumper. All backed up with a competitive financing?

[skwdenyer]

DonkeyApple said:

Anyone recall how those jumper things used to work? Arguably a bit too low tech and environmental but maybe someone could create a WiFi enabled one that does a load of completely unecassary things, ship it in using as big a carbon footprint as possible and give it a cool name like iJumper. All backed up with a competitive financing?

LOL. My Father likes to remind me that his first car, a 1932 Lanchester, had no heater, a wind-out windscreen for ventilation, and plenty of room to allow one to be bundled up in what was called a car coat. As late as the 1960s heaters were optional on economy cars. Carts (pulled by horses) had none of course.

A lack of a heater is not it seems the impediment it might be, provided one is already dressed appropriately for the external conditions. The problem is, nobody is these days

[Smiljan]

skwdenyer said:

LOL. My Father likes to remind me that his first car, a 1932 Lanchester, had no heater, a wind-out windscreen for ventilation, and plenty of room to allow one to be bundled up in what was called a car coat.

Sounds just like a year old Land Rover Defender

[skwdenyer]

Smiljan said:

skwdenyer said:

LOL. My Father likes to remind me that his first car, a 1932 Lanchester, had no heater, a wind-out windscreen for ventilation, and plenty of room to allow one to be bundled up in what was called a car coat.

Sounds just like a year old Land Rover Defender

My 1986 110 is certainly very similar!

[anonymous-user]

Burwood said:

I remember the days in Dundas Street, as a student. It was neg 5 C in my bedroom overnight. We had one of those terrible student let landlords. Our law lecturer (a QC) told us legally at those temperatures we could burn the furniture

You had furniture? Luxury!!

[RobDickinson]

Looks like more euro countries with model 3 configuration going live Inc Germany.

Still not type approved though?

Performance 3 is literally half the price of the BMW or merc in China now, that market for Tesla is their 2nd largest..

[Smiljan]

They need something to help out in China, only 211 Tesla's total were sold in that country in October.

What's most interesting about this piece is the price of the BMW over there not the price of the Model 3. Why is it so high?

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/18/tesla-model-3...

They're saying it's equivalent to $162,000 for a BMW M3 in China currently - why?

Having said that, the entire piece seems to be written off the back of some twitter posts a la Daily Mails current favourite click bait journo style. I don't know if anyone has actually verified those prices.

[RobDickinson]

Smiljan said:

Why is it so high?

Import tariffs, went up to 50% for us/tesla recently which is why october was a bad month, and everyone knew they would be coming down.


BMW sell a lot of cars in China but they are mostly made there, the M ones are not so subject to huge import duties.

[Smiljan]

The base 3-series is around $45k in China (the new one) so the import taxes must escalate somehow to come up with that price for the BMW M3.

The BMW M3 starts at $66k in the USA (Similar to the Tesla Model 3 price). For it to change to $162,000 in China seem bizarre considering the Tesla only goes up by about 15-20% over the USA price in China.

[Burwood]

RobDickinson said:

Smiljan said:

Why is it so high?

Import tariffs, went up to 50% for us/tesla recently which is why october was a bad month, and everyone knew they would be coming down.


BMW sell a lot of cars in China but they are mostly made there, the M ones are not so subject to huge import duties.

There are 3 taxes on cars. The 50% tariff which used to be 25% may drop further. There is also a consumption tax up to 40% (based on engine size) and a 9% car purchase tax. Not to forget vat as well at 17%. So at the moment any uk car is double the price in China. The consumption tax at 40% over 4l displacement is the kick in the balls. Perhaps why BMW is building a new 4L engine which will be used by JLR

[RobDickinson]

Smiljan said:

The base 3-series is around $45k in China (the new one) so the import taxes must escalate somehow to come up with that price for the BMW M3.

The BMW M3 starts at $66k in the USA (Similar to the Tesla Model 3 price). For it to change to $162,000 in China seem bizarre considering the Tesla only goes up by about 15-20% over the USA price in China.

The base 3 series is made in china BMW have factory there, but not for the M

[Smiljan]

Thanks Burwood, I couldn't understand why it was so much higher. So it's an electric car incentive to have the lower tax on the Tesla than the BMW?

Rob, I think Burwood has covered it. Even though the regular 3-series is built in China I couldn't see how import tax could account for the massive difference in price compared to the Tesla. Seems its an EV incentive.

Edited by Smiljan on Friday 21st December 19:35

[RobDickinson]

Smiljan said:

Thanks, I couldn't understand why it was so much higher. So it's an electric car incentive to have the lower tax on the Tesla than the BMW?

Nope Its a US -> China tariff that has changed I think not EVs specifically but there is a penalty on iCE cars in china also

[Smiljan]

Is Burwood incorrect about the 40% consumption tax based on engine size then?

[skwdenyer]

Smiljan said:

The base 3-series is around $45k in China (the new one) so the import taxes must escalate somehow to come up with that price for the BMW M3.

The BMW M3 starts at $66k in the USA (Similar to the Tesla Model 3 price). For it to change to $162,000 in China seem bizarre considering the Tesla only goes up by about 15-20% over the USA price in China.

It used to be the case there was a 25% consumption tax on vehicles with large engines (such as the M3), and a 25% import tarrif, and a vehicle purchase tax (10% IIRC). I'm not sure what the levels are now, but there can be a *lot* of tax in a premium vehicle.

Tesla, being an EV, seems to catch quite a few tax breaks in China.

[Smiljan]

Good news for Tesla I guess, I saw on Elektrek they expect around 20,000 Tesla Model 3 sales in Germany during 2019 too so plenty to keep the factory busy.