Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...

[Tony427]

In such a litigateous society as the US, where a manufacturer is stating that its brakes were not wholly consistent in their stopping capabilities and can be fixed with a relativly simple firmware fix, just how many law suits are being prepared by all and sundry who have been hit by Tesla's or who have themselves hit Tesla's stating unanticipated/ erronious/ inconsitent brakes as the reason for the accident.

Its a minefield. Or a goldmine. Depending on which side you are on.

Cheers,

Tony

[Tony427]

In other news the Model 3's will be shipped starting with only the most expensive, most optioned, most profitable models first.

Another promise broken it seems.

https://www.recode.net/2018/5/22/17365734/telsa-el...

Cheers,

Tony

[TooLateForAName]

Tony427 said:

In other news the Model 3's will be shipped starting with only the most expensive, most optioned, most profitable models first.

Another promise broken it seems.

https://www.recode.net/2018/5/22/17365734/telsa-el...

Cheers,

Tony

I've never believed that they would actually deliver a £35K car

[hyphen]

Isn't that old news? I'm sure I posted the same on here a month ago that the had decided entry level orders were low priority.

[Heres Johnny]

Tony427 said:

In other news the Model 3's will be shipped starting with only the most expensive, most optioned, most profitable models first.

Another promise broken it seems.

When did they promise to ship the cheapest, shortest ranged, 35k model first?

In other news, someone on PH fails a comprehension test.

[TooLateForAName]

Heres Johnny said:

Tony427 said:

In other news the Model 3's will be shipped starting with only the most expensive, most optioned, most profitable models first.

Another promise broken it seems.

When did they promise to ship the cheapest, shortest ranged, 35k model first?

In other news, someone on PH fails a comprehension test.

That isn't what Tony said. Also he is correct.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-delive...

Even the TEsla website says you can order mid range cars

tesla said:

Which Model 3 features are currently available?
Our first Model 3 in production comes with a long-range battery, 310 miles of range, rear-wheel drive and premium upgrades throughout, beginning at $49,000 USD. In late 2018, we will introduce the option for a standard battery with 220 miles of range and standard equipment, beginning at $35,000 USD.

That $49K is a fair whack less than the $78K musk is now talking about.

Edited by TooLateForAName on Friday 25th May 08:35

[Toaster]

liner33 said:

No you have to pay extra for "premium brakes"

lol I will have one of those please. Many manufactures will use a company like Bosch to test and tune their cars brakes, traction and stability set ups. In many ways this is good practice as an outside agencies test facilities can pick up any oversight in development. Lotus with all their expertise and engineering consultancy do this )and many others) I wonder if Tesla also do this?

[Tony427]

Musk at Model 3 launch said

“Going from the S and the X, we finally come to the final step in the Master Plan – which is a mass-market, affordable car,” he told his audience. “In terms of price, it will be $35,000. Even if you buy no options at all this will still be an amazing car. You will not be able to buy a better car for $35,000 or even close, even if you get no options. It’s a really good car, even with no options.”

Except he's not making them.

In fact he won't be for some considerable time as higher specced cars' production and delivery will be leapfrogged over the base cars orders pushing the affordable, and unprofitable, cars even more into the future.

If you are sitting in the UK, with a base Model 3 order placed, it will only be delivered realistically in 2020. Production of RHD high spec models will only supposedly start, ignoring Musk's record at overpromising and underdelivering, in 2019 in any event.

Perhaps he's taken the old Morgan waiting list idea, it got up to 7 years at one point I believe, and ran with it.

It seems to have worked.

Cheers,

Tony

[Heres Johnny]

TooLateForAName said:

That $49K is a fair whack less than the $78K musk is now talking about.

The 76k isn't for the car the 49k refers to. Nor the 35k.

We're talking BMW 320D, BMW 340i and BMW M3. The 35k is the 320D and the 78k is the BMW M3. The current 49k is the 340i which is the only one they sell unless I'm missing something.

[Toaster]

Interesting article
As Tesla hits speed bump after speed bump, Elon Musk loses his mind in anti-media rant

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theregister.co....

[hyphen]

Point of note in todays paper - US government tax credits ($7.500 income tax rebate) only last until 200k electric vehicles are sold and then starts to taper out. This will be quite soon so buyers will have to pay a lot more with an unknown effect on entry level Model 3 reservation cancellations.

Guardian said:

The US government tax credit only lasts until Tesla, or any other manufacturer, sells 200,000 electric vehicles in the the country. It will then remain available for two quarters before being phased out over the next 12 months. Tesla has more than 300,000 vehicles on the road worldwide and is expected to cross the 200,000 barrier in the US soon.

“We don’t really know what percent of reservations wanted the $35k version, or how many wanted the Model 3 for $27,500 with the federal tax rebate,” Johnson said. “But once it steps down (likely in the first quarter) and people realise they won’t get it, that’s likely when cancellations could start.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/25/tesla-model-3-tax-credits-elon-musk-buy

[hyphen]

Tony427 said:

Musk at Model 3 launch said

“Going from the S and the X, we finally come to the final step in the Master Plan – which is a mass-market, affordable car,” he told his audience. “In terms of price, it will be $35,000. Even if you buy no options at all this will still be an amazing car. You will not be able to buy a better car for $35,000 or even close, even if you get no options. It’s a really good car, even with no options.”

Except he's not making them.
...

The article I posted below says the same, that investors are into Tesla for it to become a mass market car maker. With the release of the new higher price versions, this now raises questions over when they will stop being niche.

[LarsG]

Yipper said:

Great article in The Economist this week, showing how Tesla has a 75% to 99.9% chance of failure, due to its gigantic debt load.

History suggests companies with big debt and big losses, over multiple years, like Tesla and Uber, rarely thrive or survive.

Such firms have charismatic leaders just winging it on debt.

Tesla and Uber are statistically doomed...

https://jalopnik.com/it-d-be-a-business-miracle-if...

https://www.economist.com/news/business/21730446-f...

Judging by the amount and debt and the fact that the debt is being financed by extra 'investment' from preordered cars I'd declare the Tesla Company a Ponzi Scheme.

[jjwilde]

So why don't you short the shares and get rich then?

[gangzoom]

jjwilde said:

So why don't you short the shares and get rich then?

Because talk is cheap, and the internet is full of kids that talk but haven't got the balls to act.

I find ignoring these kids the best way fowards, would you get involved in an argument with a 5 year old?? Not worth wasting your time and effort.

Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 26th May 06:37

[LarsG]

Tesla has become a cult and and Musk has many followers. This will only continue until the other major manufacturers start putting out cars that match or exceed the Tesla specs. 3-5 years probably.

Then the electric car market will become saturated with choice and the slice of the pie will,get smaller.

Also the $7000 credit on those electric cars run out, I think after the first 60,000 are produced.

In the US you buy the car, the $7000 is then deducted from your next tax return.

The company stays alive because the money people are giving on the pre-orders is paying the debt interest. However there will come a point when the debt cannot be financed from the pre-orders. However he isn't producing enough cars either.

Instead every time money is short he takes to the stage and announced his next big plan such as trucks and blinds everyone into hysteria and asks for investment, yet he hasn't sorted out the problems.

I expect one of the major manufacturers will buy him out at some stage, that is what he is counting on, but if things go in like this he may only get £1 for the rights.

It's a real Ponzi.

[LarsG]

Ok, so you buy a Tesla, you put up with less than perfect quality control. 5 years down the line when every manufacturer is producing cars with a similar or better specification you go to trade it in..... how much will it be worth?


As much as a 1980 Trabant probably.

[Evanivitch]

LarsG said:

Ok, so you buy a Tesla, you put up with less than perfect quality control. 5 years down the line when every manufacturer is producing cars with a similar or better specification you go to trade it in..... how much will it be worth?


As much as a 1980 Trabant probably.

A 2014 Tesla Model S is still £34k second hand.

It was £50k brand new.

I can get a 2014 7 Series for sub £20k.

That's an expensive Trabant.

[Evanivitch]

LarsG said:

Instead every time money is short he takes to the stage and announced his next big plan such as trucks and blinds everyone into hysteria and asks for investment, yet he hasn't sorted out the problems.

They've addressed 2 of their biggest issues as a car manufacturer.

Supply chain and model variety.

What's the gold-standard business model that everyone is comparing them to? When did GM Europe make a profit? How much did the US Big 3 get from government? How much indirect support do existing manufacturers get from government?

It's completely fair to question the finances of the company, and the deposit scheme was a significant financial device for them. Bit lets compare them against an industry that sells million pound supercars before the concept car has even debuted, before anyone has even driven it.

Calling it a Ponzi scheme is sheer ignorance of just how messed up the automotive sector is.

[Heres Johnny]

Evanivitch said:

They've addressed 2 of their biggest issues as a car manufacturer.

Supply chain and model variety.

What's the gold-standard business model that everyone is comparing them to? When did GM Europe make a profit? How much did the US Big 3 get from government? How much indirect support do existing manufacturers get from government?

It's completely fair to question the finances of the company, and the deposit scheme was a significant financial device for them. Bit lets compare them against an industry that sells million pound supercars before the concept car has even debuted, before anyone has even driven it.

Calling it a Ponzi scheme is sheer ignorance of just how messed up the automotive sector is.

If only he had solved the supply chain. They ran out of 12v batteries the other week and its a common failure component. I wouldn't call it a ponzi scheme but it is dubious behaviour taking $200k orders for a car thats years away and my never come to market, for full self driving thats no where to be seen and even the M3 reservations were speculative.