Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
Witchfinder said:
gangzoom said:
Thats exactly my point!!
Not just Teslas but ALL EVs are way overpriced which is why none are really selling. Personally I have no problems paying early adopter tax for new tech, but most people aren't so silly.
I agree, but it's not as clear cut when you take running costs into account, especially in a territory where fuel is very expensive like the UK. For me, that's worth £2,500 per year. It's still not enough, but it narrows the gap.Not just Teslas but ALL EVs are way overpriced which is why none are really selling. Personally I have no problems paying early adopter tax for new tech, but most people aren't so silly.
To actually include running costs requires the consideration of future actions and events and that is a major sales hurdle. To even attempt to overcome it you have to start making up a total monthly cost figure of the comparable ICE and then showing your EV total monthly cost next to it. Even Tesla who primarily sell to educated, affluent, apex consumers has to resort to publishing some kind of fuel running cost table to attempt to justify the up front cost premium of the product.
Item Average monthly spend
Fuel £67.63
Car insurance £31.64
Routine maintenance/servicing £15.96
Unexpected repairs/breakdowns £13.26
Vehicle excise duty £12.16
Breakdown cover £6.96
Parking permits and tickets £6.89
Cleaning £4.15
Fines £3.69
Monthly total (exc. finance) £162.33
Finance £226.12
Monthly total (inc. finance) £388.45
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/average-...
But this research shows up another concern which is that when you drill down to the numbers for the average car user, switching from petrol to electricity offers no great saving on an ongoing basis and that the average figure is simply knocked out of the park by the purchase cost
EVs should in coming years become notably cheaper on that all important monthly and it is only when that actually happens, when there are significant up front, in your face savings that we will see the significant cultural shift of consumers for whom using electricity is both more of a convenience and more of a cost saving demanding to switch to EV.
DonkeyApple said:
EVs should in coming years become notably cheaper on that all important monthly and it is only when that actually happens, when there are significant up front, in your face savings that we will see the significant cultural shift of consumers for whom using electricity is both more of a convenience and more of a cost saving demanding to switch to EV.
For me, the VW ID.3 is the car that will change this.DonkeyApple said:
Even Tesla who primarily sell to educated, affluent, apex consumers has to resort to publishing some kind of fuel running cost table to attempt to justify the up front cost premium of the product.
Justifying the cost of a Tesla is actually very easy if your looking at comparative products from Audi/BMW/Merc, especially at the £50-60K+ market. Decent spec S7, Q7, Caynee, etc RR are not cheaper than an S or X, but have crazy running costs in comparison. Spending £80K+ on a Tesla might seem mad, but to me it seems even madder to spend that much on a diesel SUV. Whats makes EVs hard to justify is down the price, £30K of a small, FWD, Hyundai Hatchback, that really is nuts!!
In other markets, the calculations are easier and the numbers bigger
In Norway, for example, a Tesla has such a tax advantage that it almost a no brainer purchase currently
How & if that will change as EVs become ever more prevalent in Norway remains to be seen
Here in the UK, I think the zero BIK move and the new cars coming along will help EVs gain market share a bit more quickly. But it isn't going to be the end of ICE sales anytime very soon
In Norway, for example, a Tesla has such a tax advantage that it almost a no brainer purchase currently
How & if that will change as EVs become ever more prevalent in Norway remains to be seen
Here in the UK, I think the zero BIK move and the new cars coming along will help EVs gain market share a bit more quickly. But it isn't going to be the end of ICE sales anytime very soon
JPJPJP said:
In other markets, the calculations are easier and the numbers bigger
In Norway, for example, a Tesla has such a tax advantage that it almost a no brainer purchase currently
How & if that will change as EVs become ever more prevalent in Norway remains to be seen
Here in the UK, I think the zero BIK move and the new cars coming along will help EVs gain market share a bit more quickly. But it isn't going to be the end of ICE sales anytime very soon
Yup. I think the BIK change will have an immense impact on consumers for whom the limitations of EVs is not all that relevant. We need free market economics to tilt to EVs to get beyond that point though. And I agree that this isn’t happening any time soon in the West. In Norway, for example, a Tesla has such a tax advantage that it almost a no brainer purchase currently
How & if that will change as EVs become ever more prevalent in Norway remains to be seen
Here in the UK, I think the zero BIK move and the new cars coming along will help EVs gain market share a bit more quickly. But it isn't going to be the end of ICE sales anytime very soon
gangzoom said:
Justifying the cost of a Tesla is actually very easy if your looking at comparative products from Audi/BMW/Merc, especially at the £50-60K+ market. Decent spec S7, Q7, Caynee, etc RR are not cheaper than an S or X, but have crazy running costs in comparison. Spending £80K+ on a Tesla might seem mad, but to me it seems even madder to spend that much on a diesel SUV.
Whats makes EVs hard to justify is down the price, £30K of a small, FWD, Hyundai Hatchback, that really is nuts!!
Fully agree on the last sentence. It's mentalWhats makes EVs hard to justify is down the price, £30K of a small, FWD, Hyundai Hatchback, that really is nuts!!
stuckmojo said:
gangzoom said:
Justifying the cost of a Tesla is actually very easy if your looking at comparative products from Audi/BMW/Merc, especially at the £50-60K+ market. Decent spec S7, Q7, Caynee, etc RR are not cheaper than an S or X, but have crazy running costs in comparison. Spending £80K+ on a Tesla might seem mad, but to me it seems even madder to spend that much on a diesel SUV.
Whats makes EVs hard to justify is down the price, £30K of a small, FWD, Hyundai Hatchback, that really is nuts!!
Fully agree on the last sentence. It's mentalWhats makes EVs hard to justify is down the price, £30K of a small, FWD, Hyundai Hatchback, that really is nuts!!
I dont think Hyundai is making much money (had to increase prices) and is only making about 40-50k of them a year too.
I took one out for a test drive, was quick enough, too much torque through the front wheels and the ride made me feel a bit car sick which is an achievement, cabin felt very tight.
As for BIK in the UK its going to push a lot of business drivers to EV if it fits, but only those that can actually supply cars - leafs, Zoes, i3 and model 3s for now, guessing the ID3 ill come on stream start of next year also.
RobDickinson said:
stuckmojo said:
gangzoom said:
Justifying the cost of a Tesla is actually very easy if your looking at comparative products from Audi/BMW/Merc, especially at the £50-60K+ market. Decent spec S7, Q7, Caynee, etc RR are not cheaper than an S or X, but have crazy running costs in comparison. Spending £80K+ on a Tesla might seem mad, but to me it seems even madder to spend that much on a diesel SUV.
Whats makes EVs hard to justify is down the price, £30K of a small, FWD, Hyundai Hatchback, that really is nuts!!
Fully agree on the last sentence. It's mentalWhats makes EVs hard to justify is down the price, £30K of a small, FWD, Hyundai Hatchback, that really is nuts!!
I dont think Hyundai is making much money (had to increase prices) and is only making about 40-50k of them a year too.
I took one out for a test drive, was quick enough, too much torque through the front wheels and the ride made me feel a bit car sick which is an achievement, cabin felt very tight.
As for BIK in the UK its going to push a lot of business drivers to EV if it fits, but only those that can actually supply cars - leafs, Zoes, i3 and model 3s for now, guessing the ID3 ill come on stream start of next year also.
If they all go EV it won’t make a huge difference for a few years at least, though the flood of used EVs (company cars aren’t kept for very long) will hopefully drive down the used prices.
RobDickinson said:
As for BIK in the UK its going to push a lot of business drivers to EV if it fits, but only those that can actually supply cars - leafs, Zoes, i3 and model 3s for now, guessing the ID3 ill come on stream start of next year also.
Only for those who have a company car to keep them happy and just commute? Those on the road making money won't be wanting to be making long charging stops, and neither will their employers.
REALIST123 said:
Do you know how many ‘BIK’ drivers there are in the UK, Rob? Well under a million and falling, out of well over 30 million cars.
If they all go EV it won’t make a huge difference for a few years at least, though the flood of used EVs (company cars aren’t kept for very long) will hopefully drive down the used prices.
"The commercial fleet and company car market is a primary driver of new registrations for cars"If they all go EV it won’t make a huge difference for a few years at least, though the flood of used EVs (company cars aren’t kept for very long) will hopefully drive down the used prices.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
In 2017, 58% of all car first registrations were made by companies. However, the proportion of
company registered cars in the whole of the licensed car stock was much lower, at only 8.9%. This indicates that cars tend to move quite swiftly from the company market to the private market.
Fleet/company cars are a huge driver for new car sales - and yes they are shifted on to private buyers quickly, which is why the BIK changes are huge.
RobDickinson said:
340i M Sport Sport-Auto - Automatic 8-speed
OTR: £45,100
BIK rate 37%
BIK value £16,350
Total tax 2019-22 (40%) £19,620
TESLA Model 3 Performance AWD Auto
OTR: £49,440
BIK rate 16%
BIK value £8,334
Total tax 2019-22 (40%) £3,542
340i M Sports? How many people actually get them as company cars? (or even personal purchases) Are we talking about a very small number Rob?OTR: £45,100
BIK rate 37%
BIK value £16,350
Total tax 2019-22 (40%) £19,620
TESLA Model 3 Performance AWD Auto
OTR: £49,440
BIK rate 16%
BIK value £8,334
Total tax 2019-22 (40%) £3,542
Isn't all 320d's (or the smaller petrol's now)
Edited by hyphen on Sunday 21st July 23:11
RobDickinson said:
"The commercial fleet and company car market is a primary driver of new registrations for cars"
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
In 2017, 58% of all car first registrations were made by companies. However, the proportion of
company registered cars in the whole of the licensed car stock was much lower, at only 8.9%. This indicates that cars tend to move quite swiftly from the company market to the private market.
Fleet/company cars are a huge driver for new car sales - and yes they are shifted on to private buyers quickly, which is why the BIK changes are huge.
Manufacturers run large fleets of company cars for 6 months then sell them on. The staff don’t get the same BIK penalty as they’re a manufacturer (some age old argument about product testing) and then the VAT treatment changes. Jaguar used to have relatively junior staff driving 80k cars and middle management got two cars, I know one who said his 80 year old mother complained about her Range Rover she had on the schemehttps://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
In 2017, 58% of all car first registrations were made by companies. However, the proportion of
company registered cars in the whole of the licensed car stock was much lower, at only 8.9%. This indicates that cars tend to move quite swiftly from the company market to the private market.
Fleet/company cars are a huge driver for new car sales - and yes they are shifted on to private buyers quickly, which is why the BIK changes are huge.
The rest are largely hire cars. Flipped after a few months.
It’s how the sub 1 year old, nearly new market works.
Most company cars are kept for 2 to 4 years.
Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 22 July 07:33
RobDickinson said:
REALIST123 said:
Do you know how many ‘BIK’ drivers there are in the UK, Rob? Well under a million and falling, out of well over 30 million cars.
If they all go EV it won’t make a huge difference for a few years at least, though the flood of used EVs (company cars aren’t kept for very long) will hopefully drive down the used prices.
"The commercial fleet and company car market is a primary driver of new registrations for cars"If they all go EV it won’t make a huge difference for a few years at least, though the flood of used EVs (company cars aren’t kept for very long) will hopefully drive down the used prices.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
In 2017, 58% of all car first registrations were made by companies. However, the proportion of
company registered cars in the whole of the licensed car stock was much lower, at only 8.9%. This indicates that cars tend to move quite swiftly from the company market to the private market.
Fleet/company cars are a huge driver for new car sales - and yes they are shifted on to private buyers quickly, which is why the BIK changes are huge.
“The HMRC estimates indicate that driver take-up of company cars continues to decline.
Newly published Benefit in Kind statistics from HMRC show an estimated 940,000 drivers paid Benefit‐in‐Kind on a car in 2016/17 – down 2% from 960,000 the year before.”
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