Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
p1stonhead said:
Are we supposed to notice them?
I probably see ten a day. They are just a car nothing special certainly not now.
Over last few weeks, there have been a few posts along the lines of "a model X in brick lane got mobbed by , the supercar next to it was ignored " hence my post!I probably see ten a day. They are just a car nothing special certainly not now.
Edited by hyphen on Monday 19th August 19:28
Also guys, I have never said I hate the cars (feel free to look back).
I have said I find the fanboys a source of amusement (Rob et al) and the companies strategy bewildering. Cars are fine and would buy one (Tesla or other ev) at a point in future.
I have said I find the fanboys a source of amusement (Rob et al) and the companies strategy bewildering. Cars are fine and would buy one (Tesla or other ev) at a point in future.
Edited by hyphen on Monday 19th August 19:28
hyphen said:
Over last few weeks, there have been a few posts along the lines of "a model X in brick lane got mobbed by , the supercar next to it was ignored " hence my post!
Lol. There was one post about Brick Lane (mind), and I never claimed it was mobbed only that it got more attention than the Lambo.Edited by hyphen on Monday 19th August 19:28
But apart from that, a very accurate summary.
hyphen said:
I have said I find the fanboys a source of amusement (Rob et al) and the companies strategy bewildering. Cars are fine and would buy one (Tesla or other ev) at a point in future.
Equally, I find those who denigrate EVs, Tesla and its cars at every opportunity amusing.I have a Tesla but it is poorly built and overpriced for what it is. Tesla's approach to me as a customer was appalling.
But I can see why the cars are rather good, astonishingly capable and that people (other than middle aged men) rather like, want and even admire them.
hyphen said:
p1stonhead said:
Are we supposed to notice them?
I probably see ten a day. They are just a car nothing special certainly not now.
Over last few weeks, there have been a few posts along the lines of "a model X in brick lane got mobbed by , the supercar next to it was ignored " hence my post!I probably see ten a day. They are just a car nothing special certainly not now.
Edited by hyphen on Monday 19th August 19:28
But yeah, they are not even remotely special or even give a second glance round my way at least unless it’s the X and it has its doors open (for obvious reasons)
REALIST123 said:
DonkeyApple said:
That’s rather the point. There are enormous numbers of households that could make an EV work perfectly well without any need for special remote charging networks having to be built today. Over the next ten years as more EVs hit the road then the remote charging network is going to naturally expand. It will expand based on the economic reward for installing them, just as is happening now but at a larger pace.
But the random claim that EVs aren’t being adopted because there isn’t a massive, national charging network is just erroneous. There are clearly other reasons as to why EVs are growing market share so slowly and only where there are massive tax incentives.
The main reason has to be cost. There are millions of cars on the road with values of just a few thousand pounds. Not many EV at that level yet. But the random claim that EVs aren’t being adopted because there isn’t a massive, national charging network is just erroneous. There are clearly other reasons as to why EVs are growing market share so slowly and only where there are massive tax incentives.
And despite what others say, I have never been able to make the maths add up for one of the very highly priced EVs. I’d happily be corrected on that but every calculation I’ve seen makes assumptions that don’t seem to hold water, IMO.
Rates of depreciation, vehicle comparisons, annual fuel and maintenance savings etc always seem to be spun to support the case, using typical man maths.
BIK will make a big difference but if you think about it, BIK helps primarily those who commute by car it doesn’t specifically benefit the most important target market for EVs which is the urban and suburban runabout. The car that does all the local domestic duties and never spends much time away from its charging base, never has to do excessive, random journeys.
Maybe the MINI will be the EV that taps more successfully into the true core market for the EV in the UK. The Zoe, I3 and Leaf have been ticking over but the simple truth of the matter is that few consumers can look at an EV at present and easily see that it is the cheaper choice. This is the crucial tipping point for EV traction and for taking a decent lump of market share. They just need to be genuinely cheaper with no complex calculations like adding 1+1 or requiring inane man maths. This is clearly going to happen and all we are really discussing in reality is whether this will happen in 2, 5 or 10 years.
For the suburban commuter, Councils need only (!!) to provide lamppost chargers and start charging non-EVs for parking permits, and the tipping point will arrive quickly.
“Too expensive” I hear often. b
ks say I - just in effect pre-paying for part of the fuel for 5 years as a hedge against rising petrol / diesel costs.
The only reason I don’t have one? All my miles are on the train to London and back each week, I have a Zipcar membership in London, I have an old Land Rover at home for pottering. My wife’s car does all the miles, and her car scheme doesn’t yet have any EVs on it.
But I’m tempted enough to regularly compare a Tesla to using the train.
“Too expensive” I hear often. b
ks say I - just in effect pre-paying for part of the fuel for 5 years as a hedge against rising petrol / diesel costs.The only reason I don’t have one? All my miles are on the train to London and back each week, I have a Zipcar membership in London, I have an old Land Rover at home for pottering. My wife’s car does all the miles, and her car scheme doesn’t yet have any EVs on it.
But I’m tempted enough to regularly compare a Tesla to using the train.
REALIST123 said:
The main reason has to be cost. There are millions of cars on the road with values of just a few thousand pounds. Not many EV at that level yet.
And despite what others say, I have never been able to make the maths add up for one of the very highly priced EVs. I’d happily be corrected on that but every calculation I’ve seen makes assumptions that don’t seem to hold water, IMO.
Rates of depreciation, vehicle comparisons, annual fuel and maintenance savings etc always seem to be spun to support the case, using typical man maths.
There are lots of people with lots of different circumstances. I think that BEV's can compete on price or even beat a low cost ICE. My Leaf 24 kWh is a case in point over three years it saved me £3000 in fuel and depreciated by £2000 when I sold it. So the first car I ever had that in effect made me money. But the market is always moving and the car was a PITA if I ever had to use the charging infrastructure. If used purely on home charging then it would have been a keeper long term.And despite what others say, I have never been able to make the maths add up for one of the very highly priced EVs. I’d happily be corrected on that but every calculation I’ve seen makes assumptions that don’t seem to hold water, IMO.
Rates of depreciation, vehicle comparisons, annual fuel and maintenance savings etc always seem to be spun to support the case, using typical man maths.
But look what is available today to compete with that £2000 old car. From Evezy A ZOE for £289 month and 12,000 miles/year WLTP 186 miles
https://www.evezy.co.uk/our-vehicles/
Included in the monthly costs. (figures from my car I bought at 2 1/2 years old and scrapped 10 years later)
Insurance £ 30/month
Breakdown cover £ 5/month
Wear & Tear £ 25/month
Service & Repair £ 25/month
Charging/fuel £100/month
VED £12/month
So costs if effect £92/month versus an old £2000 car. So for that £2000 I could get a brand spanking new ZOE for two years with no commitment and change it with a months notice. The risk for the banger is it could breakdown and cost a packet to repair/replace. But this is a new car against an old ICE.
Myth Busted ? And it will only get better in time with all the new models coming out and prices coming down.
DonkeyApple said:
BIK will make a big difference but if you think about it, BIK helps primarily those who commute by car it doesn’t specifically benefit the most important target market for EVs which is the urban and suburban runabout. The car that does all the local domestic duties and never spends much time away from its charging base, never has to do excessive, random journeys.
Maybe the MINI will be the EV that taps more successfully into the true core market for the EV in the UK. The Zoe, I3 and Leaf have been ticking over but the simple truth of the matter is that few consumers can look at an EV at present and easily see that it is the cheaper choice. This is the crucial tipping point for EV traction and for taking a decent lump of market share. They just need to be genuinely cheaper with no complex calculations like adding 1+1 or requiring inane man maths. This is clearly going to happen and all we are really discussing in reality is whether this will happen in 2, 5 or 10 years.
Just wait till the Bev Evoque Maybe the MINI will be the EV that taps more successfully into the true core market for the EV in the UK. The Zoe, I3 and Leaf have been ticking over but the simple truth of the matter is that few consumers can look at an EV at present and easily see that it is the cheaper choice. This is the crucial tipping point for EV traction and for taking a decent lump of market share. They just need to be genuinely cheaper with no complex calculations like adding 1+1 or requiring inane man maths. This is clearly going to happen and all we are really discussing in reality is whether this will happen in 2, 5 or 10 years.
comes out those dyed blonds will be queuing upskwdenyer said:
For the suburban commuter, Councils need only (!!) to provide lamppost chargers and start charging non-EVs for parking permits, and the tipping point will arrive quickly.
“Too expensive” I hear often. bks say I - just in effect pre-paying for part of the fuel for 5 years as a hedge against rising petrol / diesel costs.
The only reason I don’t have one? All my miles are on the train to London and back each week, I have a Zipcar membership in London, I have an old Land Rover at home for pottering. My wife’s car does all the miles, and her car scheme doesn’t yet have any EVs on it.
But I’m tempted enough to regularly compare a Tesla to using the train.
The fact is EVs just aren't as convenient as an ICE engined car, and certainly won't be for some time to come. Cheap? Some of "cheap" Tesla Model 3 range is more expensive than the brand new Corvette in the States.“Too expensive” I hear often. b
ks say I - just in effect pre-paying for part of the fuel for 5 years as a hedge against rising petrol / diesel costs.The only reason I don’t have one? All my miles are on the train to London and back each week, I have a Zipcar membership in London, I have an old Land Rover at home for pottering. My wife’s car does all the miles, and her car scheme doesn’t yet have any EVs on it.
But I’m tempted enough to regularly compare a Tesla to using the train.
skwdenyer said:
For the suburban commuter, Councils need only (!!) to provide lamppost chargers and start charging non-EVs for parking permits, and the tipping point will arrive quickly.
“Too expensive” I hear often. bks say I - just in effect pre-paying for part of the fuel for 5 years as a hedge against rising petrol / diesel costs.
The only reason I don’t have one? All my miles are on the train to London and back each week, I have a Zipcar membership in London, I have an old Land Rover at home for pottering. My wife’s car does all the miles, and her car scheme doesn’t yet have any EVs on it.
But I’m tempted enough to regularly compare a Tesla to using the train.
50% of UK households have driveways and we can probably guess that if looking at the households who have the wealth to purchase an EV they are going to be more likely to fall into that 50% bracket outside of Central London. “Too expensive” I hear often. b
ks say I - just in effect pre-paying for part of the fuel for 5 years as a hedge against rising petrol / diesel costs.The only reason I don’t have one? All my miles are on the train to London and back each week, I have a Zipcar membership in London, I have an old Land Rover at home for pottering. My wife’s car does all the miles, and her car scheme doesn’t yet have any EVs on it.
But I’m tempted enough to regularly compare a Tesla to using the train.
They are too expensive. As you say yourself, consumers need to take a step into the world of thinking to calculate potential fuel savings. That just doesn’t happen. You simply need the basic numbers to be lower than the comparable ICE.
Wife wants a new MINI for the local chores. You know an EV will be easy to run as it justs gets charged at home and a lot of the places it goes have charging of some form, so it’s just a matter of looking at the price. Is it cheaper to slap on the driveway? No it isn’t so you buy another ICe for the time being.
It gets skewed if the wife wants an EV but generally speaking even if the user of the local runabout makes 100% their own commercial decisions there is a really, really good reason why they are not buying Rolls Royce’s, Model S or iPaces or anything like that but are buying sensible hatchbacks on sensible monthlies.
The key is to look at the top ten best selling cars in the UK. If you want significant EV adoption then EVs must be capable of getting in that top 10’or very close.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/uks-top-10...
We can be far off the tipping point but we catagorically aren’t there yet.
DonkeyApple said:
Wife wants a new MINI for the local chores. You know an EV will be easy to run as it justs gets charged at home and a lot of the places it goes have charging of some form, so it’s just a matter of looking at the price. Is it cheaper to slap on the driveway? No it isn’t so you buy another ICe for the time being.
It gets skewed if the wife wants an EV but generally speaking even if the user of the local runabout makes 100% their own commercial decisions there is a really, really good reason why they are not buying Rolls Royce’s, Model S or iPaces or anything like that but are buying sensible hatchbacks on sensible monthlies.
The key is to look at the top ten best selling cars in the UK. If you want significant EV adoption then EVs must be capable of getting in that top 10’or very close.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/uks-top-10...
We can be far off the tipping point but we catagorically aren’t there yet.
I think it's maybe a little simpler than this, the majority of people have very little / zero knowledge of EV's.It gets skewed if the wife wants an EV but generally speaking even if the user of the local runabout makes 100% their own commercial decisions there is a really, really good reason why they are not buying Rolls Royce’s, Model S or iPaces or anything like that but are buying sensible hatchbacks on sensible monthlies.
The key is to look at the top ten best selling cars in the UK. If you want significant EV adoption then EVs must be capable of getting in that top 10’or very close.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/uks-top-10...
We can be far off the tipping point but we catagorically aren’t there yet.
I got a Hybrid 12 months ago and the amount of people who have no idea at all about it (and I include what I thought were so called car people in this group), go one step further mention EV's and eyes glaze over.
Mention EV's to people you know who drive the top 5 cars in that list and I bet the majority of the replies will be "errrrr, what.........."
DonkeyApple said:
The key is to look at the top ten best selling cars in the UK. If you want significant EV adoption then EVs must be capable of getting in that top 10’or very close.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/uks-top-10...
We can be far off the tipping point but we catagorically aren’t there yet.
But let's not forget that people know what they like, and the buy what they know. So if you or your family have always bought a Ford or a Vauxhall then you will continue to do so. But neither of those manufacturers offer EV until very recently.https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/uks-top-10...
We can be far off the tipping point but we catagorically aren’t there yet.
The E-Golf was so supply constrained that dealers were blatantly steering people towards ICE whenever they had enquiries because they knew they couldn't get stock.
Once you have EV variants of everyday cars, it's very simple to compare the PCP and the running costs alongside each other. That's not to say EV will be cheaper, but at least the information is simple and obvious.
But right now going EV is a leap to a brand or even model they wouldn't otherwise consider.
Evanivitch said:
But let's not forget that people know what they like, and the buy what they know. So if you or your family have always bought a Ford or a Vauxhall then you will continue to do so. But neither of those manufacturers offer EV until very recently.
The E-Golf was so supply constrained that dealers were blatantly steering people towards ICE whenever they had enquiries because they knew they couldn't get stock.
Once you have EV variants of everyday cars, it's very simple to compare the PCP and the running costs alongside each other. That's not to say EV will be cheaper, but at least the information is simple and obvious.
But right now going EV is a leap to a brand or even model they wouldn't otherwise consider.
Very true and I think these are the real issues to volume sales. The E-Golf was so supply constrained that dealers were blatantly steering people towards ICE whenever they had enquiries because they knew they couldn't get stock.
Once you have EV variants of everyday cars, it's very simple to compare the PCP and the running costs alongside each other. That's not to say EV will be cheaper, but at least the information is simple and obvious.
But right now going EV is a leap to a brand or even model they wouldn't otherwise consider.
The MINI might change things a little as it contains a fashion element that may help overcome the cost aspect but VW are the ones leading the charge now at the bottom end and they are the best hope for EV runabouts that match ICE for initial purchase price.
ZesPak said:
Heres Johnny said:
Tesla is a current fad. The cool car to be seen in. It’s probably going to take a fair bit of bad press for that bubble to burst, but one day they’ll be a new cool kid on the block, there always is.
Out of interest, what was the fad before Tesla? T-195 said:
The fact is EVs just aren't as convenient as an ICE engined car, and certainly won't be for some time to come. Cheap? Some of "cheap" Tesla Model 3 range is more expensive than the brand new Corvette in the States.
They're more convenient for my use, but then I'm not daft enough to assume everyone else's situation is the same as mine and make sweeping statements using the word "FACT" without any experience of what I am talking about.. And how does comparing the cost of the Corvette in any way further the discussion? Totally different customer, usage, market sector etc. so you're comparing apples and oranges again.
How does the cost stack up against comparable 3-Series, A4, C-Class models?
SWoll said:
T-195 said:
The fact is EVs just aren't as convenient as an ICE engined car, and certainly won't be for some time to come. Cheap? Some of "cheap" Tesla Model 3 range is more expensive than the brand new Corvette in the States.
They're more convenient for my use, but then I'm not daft enough to assume everyone else's situation is the same as mine and make sweeping statements using the word "FACT" without any experience of what I am talking about.. And how does comparing the cost of the Corvette in any way further the discussion? Totally different customer, usage, market sector etc. so you're comparing apples and oranges again.
How does the cost stack up against comparable 3-Series, A4, C-Class models?
SWoll said:
They're more convenient for my use, but then I'm not daft enough to assume everyone else's situation is the same as mine and make sweeping statements using the word "FACT" without any experience of what I am talking about..
And how does comparing the cost of the Corvette in any way further the discussion? Totally different customer, usage, market sector etc. so you're comparing apples and oranges again.
How does the cost stack up against comparable 3-Series, A4, C-Class models?
The Germans are small players in the US (partly because of a very poor reputation for reliability).And how does comparing the cost of the Corvette in any way further the discussion? Totally different customer, usage, market sector etc. so you're comparing apples and oranges again.
How does the cost stack up against comparable 3-Series, A4, C-Class models?
You'd be best off comparing things like the Honda Accord (from $23,780), Toyota Camry (from $24,095) or Nissan Altima (from $24,100).
These are all in the top 20 according to this: https://focus2move.com/usa-best-selling-cars/ (with the Model 3 in at 34)
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