Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...

[jamoor]

LG9k said:

The Germans are small players in the US (partly because of a very poor reputation for reliability).

You'd be best off comparing things like the Honda Accord (from $23,780), Toyota Camry (from $24,095) or Nissan Altima (from $24,100).

These are all in the top 20 according to this: https://focus2move.com/usa-best-selling-cars/ (with the Model 3 in at 34)

Doesn't the marketing and features of the car pitch them against acura, infiniti and lexus instead?

[jjwilde]

LG9k said:

Honda Accord (from $23,780), Toyota Camry (from $24,095) or Nissan Altima (from $24,100).

Do you seriously think those cars compare to a BMW M3 beating electric car which costs pennies to run?

[DonkeyApple]

jjwilde said:

LG9k said:

Honda Accord (from $23,780), Toyota Camry (from $24,095) or Nissan Altima (from $24,100).

Do you seriously think those cars compare to a BMW M3 beating electric car which costs pennies to run?

They cost half the price, are built better, have zero restriction of use and fuel is dirt cheap in the US so if you’re only metric is that they can be outdragged at the traffic lights I can see the struggle.

And let’s be honest, if you can spend $50k on a non essential product you’re going to be a bit of a plumnif you then have to worry about how much each mile costs you.

[Dave Hedgehog]

DonkeyApple said:

jjwilde said:

LG9k said:

Honda Accord (from $23,780), Toyota Camry (from $24,095) or Nissan Altima (from $24,100).

Do you seriously think those cars compare to a BMW M3 beating electric car which costs pennies to run?

They cost half the price, are built better, have zero restriction of use and fuel is dirt cheap in the US so if you’re only metric is that they can be outdragged at the traffic lights I can see the struggle.

And let’s be honest, if you can spend $50k on a non essential product you’re going to be a bit of a plumnif you then have to worry about how much each mile costs you.

the fact is the M3 is classed as small luxury car in the US and the American media list it against merc, bmw, jag and lexus not mass produced eco boxes

what has surprised me is how many bmw m3 owners have moved over to M3P on the US tesla forums

50k car buyers are not normally 1%ers lighting cigars with 50 pound notes, running costs can be a big part of man maths

[Heres Johnny]

p1stonhead said:

ZesPak said:

Heres Johnny said:

Tesla is a current fad. The cool car to be seen in. It’s probably going to take a fair bit of bad press for that bubble to burst, but one day they’ll be a new cool kid on the block, there always is.

Out of interest, what was the fad before Tesla?

Only thing I can think of albeit much higher value, is Porsche GT cars which went mental for a while (seem to be softening a bit now).

Have you forgotten the Chelsea tractor set needing 4x4 range rovers and evoques to do the school run? Maybe I spent too long in Wilmslow

And there was a time when it had to be a BMW X5 - premiership footballers all had them, as did I and 3 of my 7 neighbours, not one with one now

Or that cars just had to be white, no other colour would do?

Or the retro thing with the Mini and the Fiat 500 that even celebs would be buying and running around in

Go back far enough and it was the Golf GTI (1.9 of course).

[DonkeyApple]

Dave Hedgehog said:

the fact is the M3 is classed as small luxury car in the US and the American media list it against merc, bmw, jag and lexus not mass produced eco boxes

what has surprised me is how many bmw m3 owners have moved over to M3P on the US tesla forums

50k car buyers are not normally 1%ers lighting cigars with 50 pound notes, running costs can be a big part of man maths

Don’t forget that the BMW, or premium European was the must have status vehicle for young executives before the 3 was. The key will be for the Y to replace the 3 at the next cycle.

[anonymous-user]

For lots of people EVs cost less. Scotland have 6 year interest loans up to 35k. BIk bonus etc. Grants. All mean for many, it's cheaper to buy a new model 3 than a ford focus. If you are happy with a nearly new leaf or zoe, TOC can be half that of an ICE.

Just cos it's not cheaper for you, doesn't mean it's not cheaper for others.

And to head off the subsidy rubbish, fossil fuel industry receives magnitudes greater subsidies.

[DonkeyApple]

Sambucket said:

For lots of people EVs cost less. Scotland have 6 year interest loans up to 35k. BIk bonus etc. Grants. All mean for many, it's cheaper to buy a new model 3 than a ford focus. If you are happy with a nearly new leaf or zoe, TOC can be half that of an ICE.

Just cos it's not cheaper for you, doesn't mean it's not cheaper for others.

And to head off the subsidy rubbish, fossil fuel industry receives magnitudes greater subsidies.

If you are in the market for or have the ability to pay for a £35k+ car in the first instance. And that whittles the number of consumers down significantly before you even get to whether the usage requirements of the consumer can then fit, that whittles it down further.

There is a really good reason as to why today almost no one on the planet will be buying an EV. But tomorrow when they are cheap enough to compete at the mass market end where most consumers make their purchases then it will be a very different matter.

What’s more, very many of the people currently trying to state that range or charging in the Outer Hebrides is what stops them will mysteriously go quiet when the EV version of their purchase point is cheaper and they have one on their drive and love it.

I personally think we will see the real change when we’ll built, practical EVs can be bought for under £20k as that brings them bang into the realms of the mass market where most new purchases are £12-25k

[LG9k]

jjwilde said:

Do you seriously think those cars compare to a BMW M3 beating electric car which costs pennies to run?

These are the vehicles the $35k Model 3 was supposed to be competing with, so in terms of achieving mass market adoption, yes they do.

Looking at the sizes and vehicle types (5 seats, sedan), yes they do.

The top of the range models nudge into bottom end Model 3 territory price-wise, yes they do.

These are the cars Tesla are going to have to replace in the USA, not a tiny amount of German luxury vehicles.

Note that here in Europe, the situation is completely different as Honda/Toyota/Nissan don't sell any of these cars (although Toyota plans to sell a massive 500 Camrys in the UK this year having reintroduced them for 2019).

It's not really difficult to understand if you try/aren't a Tesla shill.

[jamoor]

DonkeyApple said:

If you are in the market for or have the ability to pay for a £35k+ car in the first instance. And that whittles the number of consumers down significantly before you even get to whether the usage requirements of the consumer can then fit, that whittles it down further.

There is a really good reason as to why today almost no one on the planet will be buying an EV. But tomorrow when they are cheap enough to compete at the mass market end where most consumers make their purchases then it will be a very different matter.

What’s more, very many of the people currently trying to state that range or charging in the Outer Hebrides is what stops them will mysteriously go quiet when the EV version of their purchase point is cheaper and they have one on their drive and love it.

I personally think we will see the real change when we’ll built, practical EVs can be bought for under £20k as that brings them bang into the realms of the mass market where most new purchases are £12-25k

I think people are obsessed with the £35k a little bit too much.

PCP is popular these days so lets compare the cost of rental plus fuel cost on 10k a year.

Tesla model 3 - https://zen.auto/Configure?id=2061210&calculat... 3 Year lease cost + fuel = 18000+ 900 = £18,900
BMW 3 series https://www.lingscars.com/personal-car-leasing/bmw... - 3 year lease cost + fuel + servicing @ 300 a service = 17,842 + £3800 fuel @ 45mpg + £900 in "servicing" = £22,542

If we switch to the base spec 3 series its a few £thousand cheaper, but still more expensive and worse performance.


There is no market for the 3 series when you purely look at the maths.

[jamoor]

LG9k said:

These are the vehicles the $35k Model 3 was supposed to be competing with, so in terms of achieving mass market adoption, yes they do.

Looking at the sizes and vehicle types (5 seats, sedan), yes they do.

The top of the range models nudge into bottom end Model 3 territory price-wise, yes they do.

These are the cars Tesla are going to have to replace in the USA, not a tiny amount of German luxury vehicles.

Note that here in Europe, the situation is completely different as Honda/Toyota/Nissan don't sell any of these cars (although Toyota plans to sell a massive 500 Camrys in the UK this year having reintroduced them for 2019).

It's not really difficult to understand if you try/aren't a Tesla shill.

Here in Europe they come right up against the C class, A4, and the 3 series.

the 4wd 340i goes right up agains the Model 3, one is cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, requires no maintanace etc etc. It's a no brainer.

[Burwood]

jamoor said:

LG9k said:

These are the vehicles the $35k Model 3 was supposed to be competing with, so in terms of achieving mass market adoption, yes they do.

Looking at the sizes and vehicle types (5 seats, sedan), yes they do.

The top of the range models nudge into bottom end Model 3 territory price-wise, yes they do.

These are the cars Tesla are going to have to replace in the USA, not a tiny amount of German luxury vehicles.

Note that here in Europe, the situation is completely different as Honda/Toyota/Nissan don't sell any of these cars (although Toyota plans to sell a massive 500 Camrys in the UK this year having reintroduced them for 2019).

It's not really difficult to understand if you try/aren't a Tesla shill.

Here in Europe they come right up against the C class, A4, and the 3 series.

the 4wd 340i goes right up agains the Model 3, one is cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, requires no maintanace etc etc. It's a no brainer.

I'm not knocking the EV but for me the petrol car will have no much more character

[anonymous-user]

Net price of a model 3 in south korea is $27,000.

And ICE cars are not 'better made'. they are just built with cheaper techologies like clutches and cam belts which might as well be elastic bands to millenials. This absurd approach allows OMEs to spend big bucks on the lots of leather to roll the turd in to persuade gullible lemmings that they are buying a premium product rather than defunct product kept alive by lobbiests and criminals who to this day, are mainly interested in modern tech to the extent it allows them to cheat emission tests and keep the plates spinning.

[jjwilde]

Are we forgetting that some buyers might actually be in to environment issues and want to make their local air quality better too?

It's a nice side effect of having a fast, cool electric car. Also the grants available in some parts of the USA do make them a lot cheaper than $35k.

Look at the latest California model3 sales stats, quite amazing. If Tesla could make more cars they would sell more. They are working on it.

Stats: https://electrek.co/2019/08/19/tesla-sales-electri...

[Heres Johnny]

jamoor said:

I think people are obsessed with the £35k a little bit too much.

PCP is popular these days so lets compare the cost of rental plus fuel cost on 10k a year.

Tesla model 3 - https://zen.auto/Configure?id=2061210&calculat... 3 Year lease cost + fuel = 18000+ 900 = £18,900
BMW 3 series https://www.lingscars.com/personal-car-leasing/bmw... - 3 year lease cost + fuel + servicing @ 300 a service = 17,842 + £3800 fuel @ 45mpg + £900 in "servicing" = £22,542

If we switch to the base spec 3 series its a few £thousand cheaper, but still more expensive and worse performance.


There is no market for the 3 series when you purely look at the maths.

Why do you ignore servicing on the Tesla and why £900 on the BMW? A BMW service pack isn't expensive and only needs one service in 3 years 30k miles. Have you fallen for the "A Tesla doesn't need servicing" and then not read the next line which says "Do the brakes at 2 years, an annual inspection is recommended if you drive it in the wet, the filters are recommended...."

It doesn't change your figures much other than to show an immediate bias

[LG9k]

jamoor said:

Here in Europe they come right up against the C class, A4, and the 3 series.

the 4wd 340i goes right up agains the Model 3, one is cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, requires no maintanace etc etc. It's a no brainer.

I agree, and that's exactly what I said in the last sentence.

Sambucket said:

Net price of a model 3 in south korea is $27,000.

And ICE cars are not 'better made'.

No one thinks that ICE cars are better made than EVs, it's more a point/perception that that most cars, whether EV or not, are better built than Teslas. It's an important differentiation.

[LG9k]

jjwilde said:

Are we forgetting that some buyers might actually be in to environment issues and want to make their local air quality better too?

It's a nice side effect of having a fast, cool electric car. Also the grants available in some parts of the USA do make them a lot cheaper than $35k.

Look at the latest California model3 sales stats, quite amazing. If Tesla could make more cars they would sell more. They are working on it.

Stats: https://electrek.co/2019/08/19/tesla-sales-electri...

The last paragraph from that article is telling, especially as it's from a very pro-Tesla source:
[quote]Electrek’s Take
It’s crazy that California is seen as this super-progressive market in the US when it comes to electric vehicles, and yet all-electric car sales still represent only just over 5% of overall car sales.

Then you add in the fact that Tesla is responsible for over 75% of those all-electric car sales.

It goes to show that we need more compelling electric vehicle models like what Tesla is putting on the market, because that’s what is moving the needle.

I am not saying that no one else can do it, but the numbers are pretty obvious right now. A lot of automakers need to do better.

The next two years will bring a lot more diversity in the EV market, and 5% will become over 20% by the end of 2021, in my opinion.

It seems that growth will come from other manufacturers making different kinds of vehicles.

Edited by LG9k on Tuesday 20th August 15:39

[AstonZagato]

Burwood said:

I'm not knocking the EV but for me the petrol car will have so much more character

Does it though? The Tesla has character. It's just different: breathtaking acceleration and other-worldly silence rather than average acceleration with lots of "Sturm und Drang".

When you look at car journalists like Chris Harris saying he'd take a Model 3 over an M3, then perhaps you need to live with one for a while.

At the end of the day, both cars and EVs are inanimate objects. The characters we place on them are created by us. The properties of EVs create as much of a character as an ICE, IMHO.

[SWoll]

Burwood said:

I'm not knocking the EV but for me the petrol car will have no much more character

I've commented a few times on these forums but since driving an EV for an extended length of time every ICE car I've been in or driven since feels like a relic of a bygone time from a drivetrain perspective.

Don't get me wrong, for a Sunday blast around some good roads or on track I'd still go ICE every time (something like a Superlight R or Westfield Mega would be perfect) but for the rest of the time you can keep 'character' as to me that just means noiser, slower. smellier and jerkier.

[oop north]

Heres Johnny said:

Go back far enough and it was the Golf GTI (1.9 of course).

I think you may be confusing 205 and Golf, there