Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...

[AstonZagato]

Heres Johnny said:

Some Gump said:

Heres Johnny said:

It’s part of the driving assist pack pro - £1500 from memory

Have you checked out the Mobileyes latest system on the 3 series? You should, a few videos in the US - you probably forget that Tesla’s current offering is on a par with the AP1 system they shipped 4 years ago and was the previous generation of system compared to that in the BMW

No,the BMW has a clever version of radar adaptive cruise and lane assist. The tesla has autopilot and full self drive which are totally, totally different to what the mobileye system offers. Also it wasn't made in an oldfashioned car plant. It was made in a gigafactory. That's modern.

That's the difference between tesla people and not tesla people. It's not about what the car can do now, it's about what the car will be able to do in the future. Only Tesla have AP and FSD. Elon said so.

I almost thought you were serious until I read your last 3 words.

Some people however have probably read it and nodded in agreement saying “I knew the Tesla stuff was loads better, he owns a rocket ship company too”.

My new Rangie has ACC and Keep Lane Assist (probably has some fancy name in the brochure). It seems (to me) to be better resolved than AP 2 on my Model X.

[jamoor]

skwdenyer said:

DonkeyApple said:

I don’t think anyone asked for a 12-20k EV

DonkeyApple said:

If you are in the market for or have the ability to pay for a £35k+ car in the first instance. And that whittles the number of consumers down significantly before you even get to whether the usage requirements of the consumer can then fit, that whittles it down further.

There is a really good reason as to why today almost no one on the planet will be buying an EV. But tomorrow when they are cheap enough to compete at the mass market end where most consumers make their purchases then it will be a very different matter.

What’s more, very many of the people currently trying to state that range or charging in the Outer Hebrides is what stops them will mysteriously go quiet when the EV version of their purchase point is cheaper and they have one on their drive and love it.

I personally think we will see the real change when we’ll built, practical EVs can be bought for under £20k as that brings them bang into the realms of the mass market where most new purchases are £12-25k

Under 20k was your comment, to be fair. That wheelchair with VAT added (since it is VAT-free for the intended users) is £17.4k today... To get a £20k car with a decent range requires that car to be about £12k without a battery (but including everything else including dealer margin). That's going to represent a substantial "step down" for most buyers at that price range.

Battery prices have come down a long way, but it is hard to see that price trend continuing forever. Tesla have some big efficiency gains over others right now which (despite the dismissive attitudes of some on here) are a *huge* part of how you make a cheaper, viable EV (by being able to cut battery size).

In any case, people are wont to say "it's all about the monthlies." Since the residuals curve on an ICE car is likely to start looking horrid pretty quickly, the problem may simply go away. Ireland has already proposed no ICE vehicles from 2030 and floated the idea of banning all ICE vehicles from 2045. That isn't all that far away; we've got precious little time before the depreciation curve starts to look epic on a non-EV of any kind.

This is kind of where tesla have an advantage, no dealer margin so they can sell the car cheaper or a higher quality car fo rthe same.

[LG9k]

jamoor said:

This is kind of where tesla have an advantage, no dealer margin so they can sell the car cheaper or a higher quality car fo rthe same.

Is that true? There's a Tesla shop here in the main mall at Canary Wharf and I imagine the rent is pretty high.

[T-195]

skwdenyer said:

That isn't all that far away; we've got precious little time before the depreciation curve starts to look epic on a non-EV of any kind.

Can we believe that when we see it. The opposite is true right now.

[Heres Johnny]

T-195 said:

skwdenyer said:

That isn't all that far away; we've got precious little time before the depreciation curve starts to look epic on a non-EV of any kind.

Can we believe that when we see it. The opposite is true right now.

2 year old car thats lost 40% of its value (30ks worth)

https://tesla-info.com/detail.php?ref=27b344a09b56...

Is that good then?

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

2 year old car thats lost 40% of its value (30ks worth)

https://tesla-info.com/detail.php?ref=27b344a09b56...

Is that good then?

To have paid £85k for a 90D S when we paid £71k for a 6 seater optioned X shows you the maddness of current Tesla S/X - especially when you factor in the fact the 90D battery has at most only 10kWh more usable energy than a 75D pack.

The S/X are £50/60k cars, anyone paying more for them surely knows they are paying a premium/profit for Tesla.

I love our X, but no way is a P100D version worth £100k+. If Tesla want to shift the S/X cars they have drop the price back to 2016 levels.

£50k for a base S £60k for a base X, simple.

Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 21st August 12:06

[T-195]

gangzoom said:

Heres Johnny said:

2 year old car thats lost 40% of its value (30ks worth)

https://tesla-info.com/detail.php?ref=27b344a09b56...

Is that good then?

To have paid £85k for a 90D S when we paid £71k for a 6 seater optioned X shows you the maddness of current Tesla S/X - especially when you factor in the fact the 90D battery has at most only 10kWh more usable energy than a 75D pack.

The S/X are £50/60k cars, anyone paying more for them surely knows they are paying a premium/profit for Tesla.

I love our X, but no way is a P100D version worth £100k+. If Tesla want to shift the S/X cars they have drop the price back to 2016 levels.

£50k for a base S £60k for a base X, simple.

Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 21st August 12:06

You probably got a big discount because you own the only Model X in the country.

Why not get back to us about depreciation after you have sold it.

[jamoor]

LG9k said:

Is that true? There's a Tesla shop here in the main mall at Canary Wharf and I imagine the rent is pretty high.

Yes I'm sure, that store doesn't need to be "profitable".

Franchised dealers need to cover overheads and make a profit.

Edited by jamoor on Wednesday 21st August 12:36

[gangzoom]

T-195 said:

Why not get back to us about depreciation after you have sold it.

And buy what instead? A discounted £55k ex demo iPace with less space, worse software, worse charging, doors I have to open by hand and that amazing JLR reliability?

The Merc EQC is interesting though, waiting on Bjorns range test.

[LG9k]

jamoor said:

Yes I'm sure, that store doesn't need to be "profitable".

Franchised dealers need to cover overheads and make a profit.

Edited by jamoor on Wednesday 21st August 12:36

Makes sense, Tesla don't need to make a profit on their cars, so can lose money on expensive stores, thus increasing their losses further.

[hyphen]

jamoor said:

This is kind of where tesla have an advantage, no dealer margin so they can sell the car cheaper or a higher quality car fo rthe same.

Dealer margins don't matter, as long as they are making sales that wouldn't happen otherwise, and adding value.

Human relationships matter in sales, there are buyers who regularly go back to the same salesperson for a new car, as the salesperson knows them, and has also taken time to get to know their kids names and so on.

Probably more so with EVs, as the customer will have more questions than usual.

Same with Tesla and their minimal advertising budget. A lot of people are talking about VWs upcoming EVs already, as they are promoting it heavily.

Many won't read a group test about Tesla winning against others, they will see an ad on Facebook about a rival car, and go to see it.

Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 21st August 15:35

[jamoor]

LG9k said:

Makes sense, Tesla don't need to make a profit on their cars, so can lose money on expensive stores, thus increasing their losses further.

Yes they don't need to make money from the cars if their long term aim is to run the robotaxi fleet. That's their recurring source of revenue

[skwdenyer]

hyphen said:

jamoor said:

This is kind of where tesla have an advantage, no dealer margin so they can sell the car cheaper or a higher quality car fo rthe same.

Dealer margins don't matter, as long as they are making sales that wouldn't happen otherwise, and adding value.

Human relationships matter in sales, there are buyers who regularly go back to the same salesperson for a new car, as the salesperson knows them, and has also taken time to get to know their kids names and so on.

Probably more so with EVs, as the customer will have more questions than usual.

Same with Tesla and their minimal advertising budget. A lot of people are talking about VWs upcoming EVs already, as they are promoting it heavily.

Many won't read a group test about Tesla winning against others, they will see an ad on Facebook about a rival car, and go to see it.

Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 21st August 15:35

You can’t have it all ways - either they’re influenced by Facebook ads or they have dealer loyalty

Dealers are a parasitic cost on a consumer product. If we must have them, let them be independent and multi-brand and open to proper competition.

Just like other products, if manufacturers perceive enough benefit they will open their own stores to project a “brand experience.” But a Ford / Kia / Dacia / whatever? It is a consumer product.

Right now they dealers are a high-cost channel paid for by the customer who has no choice in the matter.

[jamoor]

skwdenyer said:

You can’t have it all ways - either they’re influenced by Facebook ads or they have dealer loyalty

Dealers are a parasitic cost on a consumer product. If we must have them, let them be independent and multi-brand and open to proper competition.

Just like other products, if manufacturers perceive enough benefit they will open their own stores to project a “brand experience.” But a Ford / Kia / Dacia / whatever? It is a consumer product.

Right now they dealers are a high-cost channel paid for by the customer who has no choice in the matter.

Well the dealership network made sense 50 years ago as it allowed a manufacturer to expand their market with little investment from the manufacturer.

E.G If BMW wanted a presence in Birmingham, the franchisee would be responsible for the cost in setting up the showroom, servicing etc.

Not only that but these cars had to visit a dealer for an oil change frequently so it gave the dealer a recurring source of revenue and gave the customer aftersales support.


Fast forward to 2019 where you can sell stuff through the internet, customers now expect a returns policy (something which Tesla has perfected in more ways than meets the eye) and we have cars that don't need to go back to service at all or frequently. It makes their business model obslete.

[LG9k]

jamoor said:

Yes they don't need to make money from the cars if their long term aim is to run the robotaxi fleet. That's their recurring source of revenue

[Heres Johnny]

Most franchise dealers own multiple brand franchises. Its the car companies that dictate the colour scheme, tint of the windows and nature of the cladding

The benefit of franchise dealers is they're in competition with other franchise dealers of the same make as well as other makes. Think how good it would be if one Tesla "dealer" or location actually PDI'd their cars, decided they would invest some of their margin in staffing correctly, decided to answer the phone to get the warranty work. You know... maybe offer a service. The others would all follow if the buying public decided it was worth while stepping over their local branch and travel a bit further to a better one. We could call it something like "competition".

The secondary benefit of a franchise is that you don't pay for them and if you're a cash strapped company, why do you need to? Give up a trickle of your future profit and they'll offer a better service.

The rules are simple, set a minimum standard, give them paint code for the walls. audit them (I don't believe Tesla even have a country manager any more in the UK), and let hem get on with it.

Its only worth doing things differently to the indusry norm if you're going to do it better.

[jamoor]

Heres Johnny said:

Most franchise dealers own multiple brand franchises. Its the car companies that dictate the colour scheme, tint of the windows and nature of the cladding

The benefit of franchise dealers is they're in competition with other franchise dealers of the same make as well as other makes. Think how good it would be if one Tesla "dealer" or location actually PDI'd their cars, decided they would invest some of their margin in staffing correctly, decided to answer the phone to get the warranty work. You know... maybe offer a service. The others would all follow if the buying public decided it was worth while stepping over their local branch and travel a bit further to a better one. We could call it something like "competition".

The secondary benefit of a franchise is that you don't pay for them and if you're a cash strapped company, why do you need to? Give up a trickle of your future profit and they'll offer a better service.

The rules are simple, set a minimum standard, give them paint code for the walls. audit them (I don't believe Tesla even have a country manager any more in the UK), and let hem get on with it.

Its only worth doing things differently to the indusry norm if you're going to do it better.

The franchise system is not relevant in todays market.

The fact that you already said that the dealers compete with each other on price or service shows that it doesn't work as it leads to brand inconsistency.

Day in day out people on this forum state to avoid the Birmingham dealer and go to Solihull because it's better. What if you got identical service/products/pricing no matter where you went rather than having to negotiate everything every single time?

[jamoor]

LG9k said:

What crazier is when you look at your local BMW dealers source of recurring revenue!

It's the Gillette razorblade model of business.

[hyphen]

jamoor said:

What crazier is when you look at your local BMW dealers source of recurring revenue!

It's the Gillette razorblade model of business.

They give £30k cars away so you keep coming back to buy £400 tyres?

[Heres Johnny]

jamoor said:

The franchise system is not relevant in todays market.

The fact that you already said that the dealers compete with each other on price or service shows that it doesn't work as it leads to brand inconsistency.

Day in day out people on this forum state to avoid the Birmingham dealer and go to Solihull because it's better. What if you got identical service/products/pricing no matter where you went rather than having to negotiate everything every single time?

What - like the same ste service?

Or are we saying it nbeeds to be like McDonalds?

Mercedes went through this 10 years ago - they were cutting back the number of dealers, a few regional centers, owned by Merc, it was the future, they have more dealerships today than when they started that exercise because you know what, there are still used cars, and people like to kick the tyres of used cars.

Tesla would probably do way better if they offered a decent after market used market which can actually make cash, and probably more cash, for the franchise dealers selling new stock. The car I own I bought from a non Tesla dealer, and I know a bit about Tesla and Vins and inventory and I actually went into Tesla in Birmingham 2 years ago to look at my car because they said it was for sale there. It wasn't there. They took details of my car and said they'd send me a quote and I left. 4 days later I spotted the car at a dealership for 10k (yes 10 thousand pounds) less than Tesla were listing it for and I still hadn't had my part ex quote. I drove over, the car was there, he looked at mine, offered a price, we haggled over a new tyre, and the car was bought. Tesla lost 10k on that sale - in fact the dealer told me afterwards he'd made 3k in 2 days as Tesla sold it to him for about 13k less than it was listed for. That makes NO SENSE WHATSEVER.

Dealers aren't going anywhere as they deal with New and Used and they sort out the issues when your xpensive purchase goes wrong, and even if they change the new car buying process, the dealers will still be there, in fact many would probably prefer not having allcoations of selling 10off new 7 series BMWs this quarter in Stoke as there's no buyers there for them, and they'd happily deliver the cars sold, fix the issues and deal with the part ex.