Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
jamoor said:
skwdenyer said:
DonkeyApple said:
I don’t think anyone asked for a 12-20k EV 
DonkeyApple said:
If you are in the market for or have the ability to pay for a £35k+ car in the first instance. And that whittles the number of consumers down significantly before you even get to whether the usage requirements of the consumer can then fit, that whittles it down further.
There is a really good reason as to why today almost no one on the planet will be buying an EV. But tomorrow when they are cheap enough to compete at the mass market end where most consumers make their purchases then it will be a very different matter.
What’s more, very many of the people currently trying to state that range or charging in the Outer Hebrides is what stops them will mysteriously go quiet when the EV version of their purchase point is cheaper and they have one on their drive and love it.
I personally think we will see the real change when we’ll built, practical EVs can be bought for under £20k as that brings them bang into the realms of the mass market where most new purchases are £12-25k
Under 20k was your comment, to be fair. That wheelchair with VAT added (since it is VAT-free for the intended users) is £17.4k today... To get a £20k car with a decent range requires that car to be about £12k without a battery (but including everything else including dealer margin). That's going to represent a substantial "step down" for most buyers at that price range.There is a really good reason as to why today almost no one on the planet will be buying an EV. But tomorrow when they are cheap enough to compete at the mass market end where most consumers make their purchases then it will be a very different matter.
What’s more, very many of the people currently trying to state that range or charging in the Outer Hebrides is what stops them will mysteriously go quiet when the EV version of their purchase point is cheaper and they have one on their drive and love it.
I personally think we will see the real change when we’ll built, practical EVs can be bought for under £20k as that brings them bang into the realms of the mass market where most new purchases are £12-25k
Battery prices have come down a long way, but it is hard to see that price trend continuing forever. Tesla have some big efficiency gains over others right now which (despite the dismissive attitudes of some on here) are a *huge* part of how you make a cheaper, viable EV (by being able to cut battery size).
In any case, people are wont to say "it's all about the monthlies." Since the residuals curve on an ICE car is likely to start looking horrid pretty quickly, the problem may simply go away. Ireland has already proposed no ICE vehicles from 2030 and floated the idea of banning all ICE vehicles from 2045. That isn't all that far away; we've got precious little time before the depreciation curve starts to look epic on a non-EV of any kind.
Heres Johnny said:
What - like the same s
te service?
Or are we saying it nbeeds to be like McDonalds?
Mercedes went through this 10 years ago - they were cutting back the number of dealers, a few regional centers, owned by Merc, it was the future, they have more dealerships today than when they started that exercise because you know what, there are still used cars, and people like to kick the tyres of used cars.
Tesla would probably do way better if they offered a decent after market used market which can actually make cash, and probably more cash, for the franchise dealers selling new stock. The car I own I bought from a non Tesla dealer, and I know a bit about Tesla and Vins and inventory and I actually went into Tesla in Birmingham 2 years ago to look at my car because they said it was for sale there. It wasn't there. They took details of my car and said they'd send me a quote and I left. 4 days later I spotted the car at a dealership for 10k (yes 10 thousand pounds) less than Tesla were listing it for and I still hadn't had my part ex quote. I drove over, the car was there, he looked at mine, offered a price, we haggled over a new tyre, and the car was bought. Tesla lost 10k on that sale - in fact the dealer told me afterwards he'd made 3k in 2 days as Tesla sold it to him for about 13k less than it was listed for. That makes NO SENSE WHATSEVER.
Dealers aren't going anywhere as they deal with New and Used and they sort out the issues when your xpensive purchase goes wrong, and even if they change the new car buying process, the dealers will still be there, in fact many would probably prefer not having allcoations of selling 10off new 7 series BMWs this quarter in Stoke as there's no buyers there for them, and they'd happily deliver the cars sold, fix the issues and deal with the part ex.
I don’t think the product is dealer ready as of yet. At the moment they deal with all the little product problems by not really dealing with them, if they created a franchise network now those dealers would actually have to deal with all the silly little problems instead of the client just living with them. te service?Or are we saying it nbeeds to be like McDonalds?
Mercedes went through this 10 years ago - they were cutting back the number of dealers, a few regional centers, owned by Merc, it was the future, they have more dealerships today than when they started that exercise because you know what, there are still used cars, and people like to kick the tyres of used cars.
Tesla would probably do way better if they offered a decent after market used market which can actually make cash, and probably more cash, for the franchise dealers selling new stock. The car I own I bought from a non Tesla dealer, and I know a bit about Tesla and Vins and inventory and I actually went into Tesla in Birmingham 2 years ago to look at my car because they said it was for sale there. It wasn't there. They took details of my car and said they'd send me a quote and I left. 4 days later I spotted the car at a dealership for 10k (yes 10 thousand pounds) less than Tesla were listing it for and I still hadn't had my part ex quote. I drove over, the car was there, he looked at mine, offered a price, we haggled over a new tyre, and the car was bought. Tesla lost 10k on that sale - in fact the dealer told me afterwards he'd made 3k in 2 days as Tesla sold it to him for about 13k less than it was listed for. That makes NO SENSE WHATSEVER.
Dealers aren't going anywhere as they deal with New and Used and they sort out the issues when your xpensive purchase goes wrong, and even if they change the new car buying process, the dealers will still be there, in fact many would probably prefer not having allcoations of selling 10off new 7 series BMWs this quarter in Stoke as there's no buyers there for them, and they'd happily deliver the cars sold, fix the issues and deal with the part ex.
Once they have the product more smoothed out then I suspect that in certain markets if they want to maximise sales then they will need to set up a network while other markets will be happy with just buying online.
Heres Johnny said:
Stolen shamelessly from a different Tesla forum as even the die hard who have been around on those for years are stating to turn and get fed up with Musk
There's a few on here that could be in this picture
It's not even that it some basic business concepts any business person should be able to grasp.There's a few on here that could be in this picture
DonkeyApple said:
Heres Johnny said:
What - like the same ste service?
Or are we saying it nbeeds to be like McDonalds?
Mercedes went through this 10 years ago - they were cutting back the number of dealers, a few regional centers, owned by Merc, it was the future, they have more dealerships today than when they started that exercise because you know what, there are still used cars, and people like to kick the tyres of used cars.
Tesla would probably do way better if they offered a decent after market used market which can actually make cash, and probably more cash, for the franchise dealers selling new stock. The car I own I bought from a non Tesla dealer, and I know a bit about Tesla and Vins and inventory and I actually went into Tesla in Birmingham 2 years ago to look at my car because they said it was for sale there. It wasn't there. They took details of my car and said they'd send me a quote and I left. 4 days later I spotted the car at a dealership for 10k (yes 10 thousand pounds) less than Tesla were listing it for and I still hadn't had my part ex quote. I drove over, the car was there, he looked at mine, offered a price, we haggled over a new tyre, and the car was bought. Tesla lost 10k on that sale - in fact the dealer told me afterwards he'd made 3k in 2 days as Tesla sold it to him for about 13k less than it was listed for. That makes NO SENSE WHATSEVER.
Dealers aren't going anywhere as they deal with New and Used and they sort out the issues when your xpensive purchase goes wrong, and even if they change the new car buying process, the dealers will still be there, in fact many would probably prefer not having allcoations of selling 10off new 7 series BMWs this quarter in Stoke as there's no buyers there for them, and they'd happily deliver the cars sold, fix the issues and deal with the part ex.
I don’t think the product is dealer ready as of yet. At the moment they deal with all the little product problems by not really dealing with them, if they created a franchise network now those dealers would actually have to deal with all the silly little problems instead of the client just living with them. te service?Or are we saying it nbeeds to be like McDonalds?
Mercedes went through this 10 years ago - they were cutting back the number of dealers, a few regional centers, owned by Merc, it was the future, they have more dealerships today than when they started that exercise because you know what, there are still used cars, and people like to kick the tyres of used cars.
Tesla would probably do way better if they offered a decent after market used market which can actually make cash, and probably more cash, for the franchise dealers selling new stock. The car I own I bought from a non Tesla dealer, and I know a bit about Tesla and Vins and inventory and I actually went into Tesla in Birmingham 2 years ago to look at my car because they said it was for sale there. It wasn't there. They took details of my car and said they'd send me a quote and I left. 4 days later I spotted the car at a dealership for 10k (yes 10 thousand pounds) less than Tesla were listing it for and I still hadn't had my part ex quote. I drove over, the car was there, he looked at mine, offered a price, we haggled over a new tyre, and the car was bought. Tesla lost 10k on that sale - in fact the dealer told me afterwards he'd made 3k in 2 days as Tesla sold it to him for about 13k less than it was listed for. That makes NO SENSE WHATSEVER.
Dealers aren't going anywhere as they deal with New and Used and they sort out the issues when your xpensive purchase goes wrong, and even if they change the new car buying process, the dealers will still be there, in fact many would probably prefer not having allcoations of selling 10off new 7 series BMWs this quarter in Stoke as there's no buyers there for them, and they'd happily deliver the cars sold, fix the issues and deal with the part ex.
Once they have the product more smoothed out then I suspect that in certain markets if they want to maximise sales then they will need to set up a network while other markets will be happy with just buying online.
hyphen said:
Musk in the q2 fall said that Tesla won't be expanding dealers,but will rapidly be expanding service centres so I think Tesla must be getting feedback that customers are demanding support for these little things in no uncertain terms!
He says a lot of thingsTop tip would be to stop reading what he says, look at what he actually does.
There's plenty of good stuff deep down but there is also an immense amount of white noise that drowns it out
It’s going to be interesting to see if people miss the buying experience that you get off buying a high end car at a dealership.
Personally I hated it with Tesla, but there weren’t many on the road at the time so was a totally new concept. Obviously I really wanted to have good look and a think. With the way they do it currently they don’t seem to appreciate that it’s a lot of money, so a lot expect an experience.
I’m lucky though that all the normal dealerships I deal with are nice. I can see why a lot of people hate the traditional way. Getting the hard sell etc.
Perhaps only the good ones will survive.
Personally I hated it with Tesla, but there weren’t many on the road at the time so was a totally new concept. Obviously I really wanted to have good look and a think. With the way they do it currently they don’t seem to appreciate that it’s a lot of money, so a lot expect an experience.
I’m lucky though that all the normal dealerships I deal with are nice. I can see why a lot of people hate the traditional way. Getting the hard sell etc.
Perhaps only the good ones will survive.
ntiz said:
Obviously I really wanted to have good look and a think. With the way they do it currently they don’t seem to appreciate that it’s a lot of money, so a lot expect an experience.
Pretty much anything bought online now is 30+ days 'no quibble return', Tesla is just 7 days and with various restrictions!You can Test Drive for a massive 15 minutes, as long as you are willing to travel to a showroom.
hyphen said:
ntiz said:
Obviously I really wanted to have good look and a think. With the way they do it currently they don’t seem to appreciate that it’s a lot of money, so a lot expect an experience.
Pretty much anything bought online now is 30+ days 'no quibble return', Tesla is just 7 days and with various restrictions!You can Test Drive for a massive 15 minutes, as long as you are willing to travel to a showroom.
Imagine going back to a mercedes dealer 3 days after buying a car, you'd be laughed out the door.
I also don't know of any manufacturer offering 7 days or 1000 miles test drives, which is pretty much what teslas refund policy is.
hyphen said:
Not one in the Uk despite starting to roll out the M3I cant recall when the last UK service centre or supercharger opened.
jamoor said:
hyphen said:
ntiz said:
Obviously I really wanted to have good look and a think. With the way they do it currently they don’t seem to appreciate that it’s a lot of money, so a lot expect an experience.
Pretty much anything bought online now is 30+ days 'no quibble return', Tesla is just 7 days and with various restrictions!You can Test Drive for a massive 15 minutes, as long as you are willing to travel to a showroom.
Imagine going back to a mercedes dealer 3 days after buying a car, you'd be laughed out the door.
I also don't know of any manufacturer offering 7 days or 1000 miles test drives, which is pretty much what teslas refund policy is.
REALIST123 said:
jamoor said:
skwdenyer said:
DonkeyApple said:
I don’t think anyone asked for a 12-20k EV
DonkeyApple said:
If you are in the market for or have the ability to pay for a £35k+ car in the first instance. And that whittles the number of consumers down significantly before you even get to whether the usage requirements of the consumer can then fit, that whittles it down further.
There is a really good reason as to why today almost no one on the planet will be buying an EV. But tomorrow when they are cheap enough to compete at the mass market end where most consumers make their purchases then it will be a very different matter.
What’s more, very many of the people currently trying to state that range or charging in the Outer Hebrides is what stops them will mysteriously go quiet when the EV version of their purchase point is cheaper and they have one on their drive and love it.
I personally think we will see the real change when we’ll built, practical EVs can be bought for under £20k as that brings them bang into the realms of the mass market where most new purchases are £12-25k
Under 20k was your comment, to be fair. That wheelchair with VAT added (since it is VAT-free for the intended users) is £17.4k today... To get a £20k car with a decent range requires that car to be about £12k without a battery (but including everything else including dealer margin). That's going to represent a substantial "step down" for most buyers at that price range.There is a really good reason as to why today almost no one on the planet will be buying an EV. But tomorrow when they are cheap enough to compete at the mass market end where most consumers make their purchases then it will be a very different matter.
What’s more, very many of the people currently trying to state that range or charging in the Outer Hebrides is what stops them will mysteriously go quiet when the EV version of their purchase point is cheaper and they have one on their drive and love it.
I personally think we will see the real change when we’ll built, practical EVs can be bought for under £20k as that brings them bang into the realms of the mass market where most new purchases are £12-25k
Battery prices have come down a long way, but it is hard to see that price trend continuing forever. Tesla have some big efficiency gains over others right now which (despite the dismissive attitudes of some on here) are a *huge* part of how you make a cheaper, viable EV (by being able to cut battery size).
In any case, people are wont to say "it's all about the monthlies." Since the residuals curve on an ICE car is likely to start looking horrid pretty quickly, the problem may simply go away. Ireland has already proposed no ICE vehicles from 2030 and floated the idea of banning all ICE vehicles from 2045. That isn't all that far away; we've got precious little time before the depreciation curve starts to look epic on a non-EV of any kind.
It also keeps them agile. Assuming they capture it, they have a direct line to every customer interaction with on of their team, and an unrivalled ability to analyse that data and iterate their model.
Now, some on here seem not overly-fond of iteration to coalesce around a preferred solution (preferring, it would seem, if Tesla behaved just like every other manufacturer), and I don't for one moment claim Tesla are getting that right or making best use of it. But it is a money-can't-buy advantage if they use it properly.
And that dealer margin? Just look at the relative prices of a Model 3 (starting at £37k) and the Jaguar iPace (starting at £64k) for a start...
skwdenyer said:
They do, after a fashion. Using their dealerless model, Tesla have been able to retain much more margin....
Analysis shows that the Premium EV market has stayed the same size, and the sales for Audi/Jag have come from Tesla losing market share. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/21/top-tech-analyst-s...Dealer margins don't matter, if they are getting sales Tesla wouldn't have got by themselves. In the USA, Audi dealers pulled all kind of guerilla stunts that made the news, such as parking eTrons at Tesla Supercharger stations.
If you incentivize sales orientated people (for want of a better term), they sweat blood (will sell their gran) to make their commission. Tesla don't have that.
A smaller slice of a bigger pie...
skwdenyer said:
Tesla have been able to retain much more margin, helping them to contribute towards their huge fixed costs whilst they ramped up to production of the Model 3. With dealer margin that would have been in round terms impossible (or required *huge* additional capital from investors/lenders).
Tesla have had to raise 'huge additional capital regardless of margin. Musk has had to collateralize all his assets and so on.skwdenyer said:
And that dealer margin? Just look at the relative prices of a Model 3 (starting at £37k) and the Jaguar iPace (starting at £64k) for a start...
Not applicable, different sized cars. Also E-tron list price is above X price in USA, yet they still sold a good amount. Despite no gull wing doors, or 7 seats and so on.If Tesla don't want dealers, then sure, but they need to start spending big on advertising.
Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 21st August 22:29
hyphen said:
skwdenyer said:
They do, after a fashion. Using their dealerless model, Tesla have been able to retain much more margin....
Analysis shows that the Premium EV market has stayed the same size, and the sales for Audi/Jag have come from Tesla losing market share. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/21/top-tech-analyst-s...Dealer margins don't matter, if they are getting sales Tesla wouldn't have got by themselves. In the USA, Audi dealers pulled all kind of guerilla stunts that made the news, such as parking eTrons at Tesla Supercharger stations.
If you incentivize sales orientated people (for want of a better term), they sweat blood (will sell their gran) to make their commission. Tesla don't have that.
A smaller slice of a bigger pie...
skwdenyer said:
Tesla have been able to retain much more margin, helping them to contribute towards their huge fixed costs whilst they ramped up to production of the Model 3. With dealer margin that would have been in round terms impossible (or required *huge* additional capital from investors/lenders).
Tesla have had to raise 'huge additional capital regardless of margin. Musk has had to collateralize all his assets and so on.skwdenyer said:
And that dealer margin? Just look at the relative prices of a Model 3 (starting at £37k) and the Jaguar iPace (starting at £64k) for a start...
Not applicable, different sized cars. Also E-tron list price is above X price in USA, yet they still sold a good amount. Despite no gull wing doors, or 7 seats and so on.If Tesla don't want dealers, then sure, but they need to start spending big on advertising.
Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 21st August 22:29
I don't see the point in spending on advertising when your customers will advertise it for you. Look at how much free press they get with fart mode in their cars or the music+door thing the model x does.
Just look on youtube for ludicrous mode reactions. It's things like this that get them free advertising (similar to ryanairs outlandish claims such as charging people to use the toilets).
Other brands can waste millions on advertising.
jamoor said:
I've always thought salespeople are a waste of time in this day and age. People hear about the benefits of a product through the internet instead, and if the product is good enough it will sell itself.
I don't see the point in spending on advertising when your customers will advertise it for you. Look at how much free press they get with fart mode in their cars or the music+door thing the model x does.
Just look on youtube for ludicrous mode reactions. It's things like this that get them free advertising (similar to ryanairs outlandish claims such as charging people to use the toilets).
Other brands can waste millions on advertising.
Tesla have been at it for16 years, lots of government incentives and 1% market share is what all EVs together have achieved.I don't see the point in spending on advertising when your customers will advertise it for you. Look at how much free press they get with fart mode in their cars or the music+door thing the model x does.
Just look on youtube for ludicrous mode reactions. It's things like this that get them free advertising (similar to ryanairs outlandish claims such as charging people to use the toilets).
Other brands can waste millions on advertising.
The reason Google and Facebook make all their money from adverts, is that it works.
jamoor said:
Other brands can waste millions on advertising.
The other brands have been making huge profits and considered those 'millions' well spent. Advertising works, its why Google and Facebook are as big as they are.Musk has 28m followers on Twitter, that means most of the 330million Americans have not been reached by his Tweets, nor most of the population worldwide.
Tesla have $5BN in (borrowed) cash. They will use it for development of Y/pickup/lorry/solar panels that don't burn down supermarkets... they need to spend some of it on hiring top ad agencies to create memorable campaigns.
Remember when iPods were new? And selling by the bucket loads? Apple still advertised heavily! As they knew the people who would buy due to word of mouth still left many who would be oblivious and so susceptible to competitors.
Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 21st August 22:55
The amount of people that have no idea that Tesla’s are basically free to run is insane.
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Edited by ntiz on Wednesday 21st August 23:04
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