Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
jamoor said:
I'm not sure how that would be work etiher as surely it requires your car movements to be logged which poses privacy concerns.
We could have a massive version of the congestion charge where plates are logged between destinations but that has similar concerns to the above.
What privacy concerns? Unless your up to no good why are you worried about a nation wide road taxation system. We could have a massive version of the congestion charge where plates are logged between destinations but that has similar concerns to the above.
The eTolls Mways network in Portugal seems to work really well.
The only fair way for taxation is to charge drivers for the distances they do. Currently EV drivers are free loading off everyone else.
I've done 52k EV miles now, paid £0 VED for those miles, £0 in fuel duty, and hardly any VAT on servicing costs. I ALMOST feel bad for the 500 mile road trip we are doing this weekend for a total fuel cost of about £5.
Back on the topic in hand, Tesla again missed their release date for self driving. I personally think it's to be applauded as it's clearly nowhere near ready for use on public roads and the company is guilty of falsely promoting abilities it doesn't have.
It has already killed several drivers who Tesla then blamed citing small print that the "Autopilot" isn't actually and autopilot and is just an assistance system.
Odd that Tesla would go out of their way to produce cars they can legitimately call the safest in class (off the back of crash testing) only to allow those same drivers to be put at risk by a flawed driver assistance system.
It has already killed several drivers who Tesla then blamed citing small print that the "Autopilot" isn't actually and autopilot and is just an assistance system.
Odd that Tesla would go out of their way to produce cars they can legitimately call the safest in class (off the back of crash testing) only to allow those same drivers to be put at risk by a flawed driver assistance system.
Tony427 said:
In addition your EV car battery could be part of the national power reserve and can act as a battery reserve to be drawn on as and when required by the network and can be re-charged whenever there is power available.
Your living in a fantasy land. It took my energy supplier 6 months and 4 engineer visits to install a 'smart' meter for our house. The meter is so 'smart' I still have to manually enter my meter readings and a guys comes over every so often to make sure am not making up the E7 figures.There 0% chance the government can be organised enough to run the grid off EV batteries, let alone bill people for it. Even our solar FIT payments are still generated on an assumed '50%' export rate. Solar FIT has been going for ages and I see no signs of central government actually wanting to record real world export rates.
However taking lots of photos of car number plates is very easy. Its already been done all the time, all you need is clever enough software to understand the images in time/place and than generate a bill.
gangzoom said:
What privacy concerns? Unless your up to no good why are you worried about a nation wide road taxation system.
The eTolls Mways network in Portugal seems to work really well.
The only fair way for taxation is to charge drivers for the distances they do. Currently EV drivers are free loading off everyone else.
I've done 52k EV miles now, paid £0 VED for those miles, £0 in fuel duty, and hardly any VAT on servicing costs. I ALMOST feel bad for the 500 mile road trip we are doing this weekend for a total fuel cost of about £5.
Regarding privacy the uk installed a national ANPR system in 2005 to record car journeys The eTolls Mways network in Portugal seems to work really well.
The only fair way for taxation is to charge drivers for the distances they do. Currently EV drivers are free loading off everyone else.
I've done 52k EV miles now, paid £0 VED for those miles, £0 in fuel duty, and hardly any VAT on servicing costs. I ALMOST feel bad for the 500 mile road trip we are doing this weekend for a total fuel cost of about £5.
The EU developed hardware for road pricing, it started of as an emergency call system, and is also going to be used for the automatic speed limiting of cars, all the required hardware of gps and data coms is installed in many cars now
gangzoom said:
What privacy concerns? Unless your up to no good why are you worried about a nation wide road taxation system.
The eTolls Mways network in Portugal seems to work really well.
The only fair way for taxation is to charge drivers for the distances they do. Currently EV drivers are free loading off everyone else.
I've done 52k EV miles now, paid £0 VED for those miles, £0 in fuel duty, and hardly any VAT on servicing costs. I ALMOST feel bad for the 500 mile road trip we are doing this weekend for a total fuel cost of about £5.
“The only fair way” is a regressive tax? My my, the programming is strong in this one The eTolls Mways network in Portugal seems to work really well.
The only fair way for taxation is to charge drivers for the distances they do. Currently EV drivers are free loading off everyone else.
I've done 52k EV miles now, paid £0 VED for those miles, £0 in fuel duty, and hardly any VAT on servicing costs. I ALMOST feel bad for the 500 mile road trip we are doing this weekend for a total fuel cost of about £5.
Smiljan said:
Heres Johnny said:
For someone with your profile name, some of your suggestions are a tad fanciful. Electricity is fungible and it being easy to get a car to communicate with the meter is technically simply, practically light years away when it would require every meter point in the country to change and a complete new universal standard to be adopted
And if you can do all that you’d not bother with any communication between car and electricity meter or applying some intricate measurement of load that can differentiate between a hot tub and a car, you’d just get the car to report how much is used mixed with gps which reports which roads it’s been on, or just install a road tag, and electronic tax disc, like the M6toll or paege on the continent.
His suggestions aren't fanciful, you're just not thinking long term. If EV's are going to be mass adopted and used going forward for personal transport for decades to come its not difficult to think of a longer term roll out of home charging solutions that will monitor energy use by Electric cars and apply some new tax to that energy to make up for the loss in revenue from fuel duty.And if you can do all that you’d not bother with any communication between car and electricity meter or applying some intricate measurement of load that can differentiate between a hot tub and a car, you’d just get the car to report how much is used mixed with gps which reports which roads it’s been on, or just install a road tag, and electronic tax disc, like the M6toll or paege on the continent.
I'd agree it's not the only option though, road pricing could also be used to regain that fuel duty.
If you're thinking just of the next 5,10 years then maybe you would consider the first option fanciful. When government needs to take money from the people changes can and will be pushed through to make it happen.
The cars can just report directly, who gives a stuff where they get their electricity as it will be easily circumvented. Are we going to do away with all granny 3 pin plug chargers?
Get the car to report directly and you can have road pricing, additional tax on electricity consumption akin to fuel duty, any number of alternative and more sophisticated models are available to you. If your starting point is we tax petrol so lets work out how we can tax electrcitiy going into cars and to do that we need to start working out how meters know where they are supplying the electrciity and to do that we need to know whats using the electrcitiy and to do that we need to have smarter appliances and cars or chargers and to do that we need... thats really not being realsitic.
Plus, if the health benefits of EVs are all they're said to be, the gov won't be bothered about the tax in the same way they're not too bothered about the loss of the tax on fags. Just stick a 50p on a pint of beer to balance the books and drive alcohol consumption down and chase the next vice thats detrimental to health.
Edited by Heres Johnny on Friday 23 August 08:14
Heres Johnny said:
REALIST123 said:
I should think it would be relatively easy to legislate EVs to ‘inform’ a smart meter that it is what’s being charged.
Of course, you might be able to defeat that technology though it wouldn’t be hard to monitor that.
Whatever, one way or another the tax will be levied. As certain as death, to paraphrase the old saw.
For someone with your profile name, some of your suggestions are a tad fanciful. Electricity is fungible and it being easy to get a car to communicate with the meter is technically simply, practically light years away when it would require every meter point in the country to change and a complete new universal standard to be adoptedOf course, you might be able to defeat that technology though it wouldn’t be hard to monitor that.
Whatever, one way or another the tax will be levied. As certain as death, to paraphrase the old saw.
And if you can do all that you’d not bother with any communication between car and electricity meter or applying some intricate measurement of load that can differentiate between a hot tub and a car, you’d just get the car to report how much is used mixed with gps which reports which roads it’s been on, or just install a road tag, and electronic tax disc, like the M6toll or paege on the continent.
As you and I agree, technically it wouldn’t be that difficult.
You’ll see I’ve also posted suggesting road charging wouldn’t be that hard to do either.
I reiterate that one way or another the revenue will be had. We seem to agree on that too.
Heres Johnny said:
REALIST123 said:
I should think it would be relatively easy to legislate EVs to ‘inform’ a smart meter that it is what’s being charged.
Of course, you might be able to defeat that technology though it wouldn’t be hard to monitor that.
Whatever, one way or another the tax will be levied. As certain as death, to paraphrase the old saw.
For someone with your profile name, some of your suggestions are a tad fanciful. Electricity is fungible and it being easy to get a car to communicate with the meter is technically simply, practically light years away when it would require every meter point in the country to change and a complete new universal standard to be adoptedOf course, you might be able to defeat that technology though it wouldn’t be hard to monitor that.
Whatever, one way or another the tax will be levied. As certain as death, to paraphrase the old saw.
And if you can do all that you’d not bother with any communication between car and electricity meter or applying some intricate measurement of load that can differentiate between a hot tub and a car, you’d just get the car to report how much is used mixed with gps which reports which roads it’s been on, or just install a road tag, and electronic tax disc, like the M6toll or paege on the continent.
I would guess that compulsory black boxes are easier to fit to cars for the purpose of road taxing than re-engineering the national grid.to capture electric cars.
Witchfinder said:
hyphen said:
DA any guesses as to what the government will do once tax from fossil fuels nosedive?
Do you think they will directly tax EVs in some way?
Road pricing is pretty much inevitable.Do you think they will directly tax EVs in some way?
It’s also highly inefficient, complex and open to abuse. It also has the huge problem of collection at source. Govts don’t want to collect from individuals, it is too costly and inefficient.
The reality is that the mechanism for taxing EVs is already in place. Just look at your utility bill. In order to obtain electricity anywhere in the UK (self generation is irrelevant for the obvious reasons) you must draw it from a utility that collects tax from you and forwards it to the Govt. You cannot procure electricity in the UK without the tax due being automatically collected and remitted. Electricity taxation is already in place and ultra efficient.
The mechanism within the utilities can tax based on time of say, type of customer, geographic location, usage bands etc etc.
The taxing of EVs when it becomes appropriate to do so isn’t any kind of issue.
The really cool thing about it is that due to everyone having a smartphone and eventually a smart meter we will be able to trade electricity and arbitrage the tax opportunities.
Homes in the UK will be defined by a base level of electricity usage at which there is no additional taxation. So the poor, the frugal and the efficient will not be taxed (that’s what the Govt will day but obviously we know they will be). Above that base consumption rate for the property type the additional use of electricity will be deemed to be as a result of unenvironmental inefficiency or the use of EVs and have a tax band applied proportionately.
This mechanism also works for getting consumers to generate VAT through the disposal of perfectly good domestic appliances and the purchasing of low energy use ones. It will also form part of the mechanism for forcing households to rip out gas central heating and replace with electric.
What’s good about it is that if you are able to cost effectively generate electricity or your usage is below a tax band you will be able to trade that electricity for profit and simple algo’s will do it for you. Likewise if you have the means to store electricity then you will be able to automatically purchase at low prices and sell on at higher later. Yorkshireman will be able to fill up their Tesla battery for free at Tesco’s and then go home, connect the car to the house system and sell that electricity.
And you wouldn’t even need to worry about down stream physical delivery when selling as the entire process can be run via OTCs.
Of course, plenty of consumers will prefer a Govt controlled anal probe that tracks their every movement and can eventually be used to expand taxation.
AstonZagato said:
Hence, the government is making a lot about pollution from tyre and brake particulates. We must be saved from this by taxation.
I would guess that compulsory black boxes are easier to fit to cars for the purpose of road taxing than re-engineering the national grid.to capture electric cars.
It’s not just brake and tyre dust but also domestic heating and energy consumption that are being slowly fed into the system. I would guess that compulsory black boxes are easier to fit to cars for the purpose of road taxing than re-engineering the national grid.to capture electric cars.
The next major form of vehicle taxation is likely to be weight based. It’s also a really nice political fix as it targets the scum rich.
At the same time the domestic heating aspect is bringing forward tax increases in domestic gas consumption to shift consumers to electric before that is raised.
Neither of these require any new tech, new systems or anything as all the structures are already in place to start tomorrow. Both are hugely efficient as the taxes are collected through existing corporate systems and both are vote winners as they target big cars and big houses.
p1stonhead said:
Having seen the inside of the Taycan, I don’t see how anyone would choose a (high price model) Tesla over one?
It looks like a mess of 4 screens and cramped. Would have preferred model3 style simplicity. But I don't think they will have any issues selling out for the first year. The more EVs the better. Shame (for them) the S will beat it in the real world to 60.Diplomatic Musk isn't getting along with Singapore
He tweeted that they weren't welcoming to Tesla, the government has now replied
He tweeted that they weren't welcoming to Tesla, the government has now replied
Singaporean Minister said:
“What Elon Musk wants to produce is a lifestyle,” Zulkifli said Wednesday when asked about the entrepreneur’s comments. “We are not interested in a lifestyle. We are interested in proper solutions that will address climate problems.”
What happened to Panasonic-Tesla's leading battery expertise? Tesla have signed up to buy batteries from LG instead for the China output of Model 3 and model Y
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-23...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-23...
hyphen said:
What happened to Panasonic-Tesla's leading battery expertise? Tesla have signed up to buy batteries from LG instead for the China output of Model 3 and model Y
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-23...
probably don't have capacity yet in china for the 2170 cells, i think tesla did the same thing at the original gig factory until panny had the manufacturing capacity built up https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-23...
jjwilde said:
p1stonhead said:
Having seen the inside of the Taycan, I don’t see how anyone would choose a (high price model) Tesla over one?
It looks like a mess of 4 screens and cramped. Would have preferred model3 style simplicity. But I don't think they will have any issues selling out for the first year. The more EVs the better. Shame (for them) the S will beat it in the real world to 60.hyphen said:
Diplomatic Musk isn't getting along with Singapore
He tweeted that they weren't welcoming to Tesla, the government has now replied
Tiny city state doesn't encourage car ownership shocker.He tweeted that they weren't welcoming to Tesla, the government has now replied
Singaporean Minister said:
“What Elon Musk wants to produce is a lifestyle,” Zulkifli said Wednesday when asked about the entrepreneur’s comments. “We are not interested in a lifestyle. We are interested in proper solutions that will address climate problems.”
In the rest of the world we have multiple cities and rural areas.
Electric cars are one of the ways to help stop climate issues and better public transport is too.
Edited by jamoor on Friday 23 August 16:13
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff