Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...

[skwdenyer]

hyphen said:

jamoor said:

hyphen said:

"As part of its EV push into the European market, Audi has launched a 71 kWh (official 186 miles range), shorter-range version of its e-tron SUV in Norway. Dubbed the e-tron 50, the all-electric vehicle comes loaded with a generous set of standard features and is priced at a very competitive NOK 499,999 (around $55,300) OTR.

https://www.teslarati.com/audi-launches-short-rang...

Is that even comparable? The basic model 3 has 240 miles of range official.

If the norweiget Tesco is a mile down the road from Bjørn's house, and family is all local, and other forms of transport are used too, then perhaps a 10 mile range would be sufficient!

And remember that these are the list prices, and if demand is low, more room to do deals than Tesla can offer.

Edited by hyphen on Thursday 29th August 00:18

Clearly there's "more room to do deals than Tesla can offer" because Audi are able to sell at a loss if they so wish.

[anonymous-user]

skwdenyer said:

jamoor said:

hyphen said:

"As part of its EV push into the European market, Audi has launched a 71 kWh (official 186 miles range), shorter-range version of its e-tron SUV in Norway. Dubbed the e-tron 50, the all-electric vehicle comes loaded with a generous set of standard features and is priced at a very competitive NOK 499,999 (around $55,300) OTR.

https://www.teslarati.com/audi-launches-short-rang...

Is that even comparable? The basic model 3 has 240 miles of range official.

Comparable to what? A leaf? It suggests to me Audi think their buyers want fashion accessories rather than practical automobiles

Are you suggesting that Tesla buyers aren’t buying a fashion accessory?

[hyphen]

skwdenyer said:

Clearly there's "more room to do deals than Tesla can offer" because Audi are able to sell at a loss if they so wish.

Yes but from their profits rather than investor debt.

[98elise]

TooLateForAName said:

BenjiS said:

Eh? 8,000,000 hours is 913 years.

I’m 42, passed my test at 17 and therefore even if I drove every minute of every day since, I’d still have only clocked up 219,000 hours.

It doesn't say 1 person, it says humans and refers to a specific cause of accidents. Presumably there is 1 accident due to misdentification of whatever for every 8 million hours of human driving.

So how does every other metric stack up? How many are caused by being drunk, tired, shouting at the kids, playing with a phone, speeding, dangerous driving etc. I'll bet the stats look very different!

[gangzoom]

jamoor said:

Is that even comparable? The basic model 3 has 240 miles of range official.

The new base eTron shows why efficiency in EVs is so important. It'll have the same amount of usable battery as our X - 66kWh actual usable without going into guessing how big the buffer is as 0% SOC.

Difference been at true 70mph our X will do 180 miles with aircon etc on even on 22inch wheels. Looking at eTron efficiency with similar sized battery your looking at 130 miles of range.

Less efficiency also means you gain far less miles per minute for rapid charging. Add in no access to reliable CCS rapid charging in the UK, the base eTron really is a very expensive town car.

[DonkeyApple]

skwdenyer said:

Err, that's not the deal that was in question. The "dodgy deal" (with the local government) was done well before even Solar City were on the scene.

My question was why have Solar City's sales tanked recently?

To be honest, they haven’t ranked recently, they just have never been there. From the point of purchase nothing has really been done with it as a business. The competition have plodded on with physical shop expansion, marketing and sales and grown their market share to be the leaders but Tesla has never actually done anything with the business other than use it as a marketing tool to pitch Investors the whole concept of a holistic energy solution to ramp up the share price.

It’s the same with the PowerWall, other firms are selling more and defining the market.

The idea of a domestic battery pack that can store home generated energy, buy in energy when prices are low and work in partnership with your car’s battery (which you fill for free courtesy of Tesla investors) is really the way forward for many of us. It is such a logical future step so one has to wonder why the biggest brand on the planet that everyone knows of and everyone wants to be associated with and who has been the largest proponent of this whole strategy has pretty much achieved absolutely no sales.

If you own a Tesla car you are arguably, to date, a high income earner with a house and a driveway. So just why is it that you wouldn’t replace your roof tiles with Tesla tiles and at the back of your garage or utility room install a very stylish and cool Tesla powerwall and basically go off grid in a very cool non ‘stting in a bag, marrying your sister’ way?

Why wouldn’t any Tesla car owner not be be buying tiles and powerwalls and why would all of us non Tesla owners be doing it either? Anyone with a large home would benefit massively from a combined self generation and self storage solution that was so elegant.

The simple answer is that it is just a load of st that doesn’t work and never worked and they’ve invested nothing in ever getting it to work because it’s value was in pumping up the share premium and using mug Tesla investors’ money to bail out a family that was about to go completely bust.

Even Musk has given up the whole illusion and farcenof his vertical integration crap and has this year moved on to the next load of bks for idiots, the fact that everyone who buys a Tesla will now be a minicab owner in 2020 and an instant millionaire who’ll never have to work again.

[oop north]

I don’t have a Tesla power wall because WBW maths isn’t there. £7k for 13 kWh storage - at 15p per kWh that will be about £1.95 of electricity stored. So if you manage to save 100% of capacity every day of the year from your wind/solar production (and I cannot believe that much is possible) that’s about £720 so ten years pay back. The maths isn’t there. I think vehicle to grid will be more important - most of the time I am not really using most of the capacity of my iPace battery so probably have 20 kWh “spare” that with the right configuration (doesn’t exist yet) I could buy from the grid in the middle of the night and sell at peak demand late afternoon / early evening. That will assist with balancing demand on the grid and local charging demand too - or go some way to doing so anyway

[DonkeyApple]

oop north said:

I don’t have a Tesla power wall because WBW maths isn’t there. £7k for 13 kWh storage - at 15p per kWh that will be about £1.95 of electricity stored. So if you manage to save 100% of capacity every day of the year from your wind/solar production (and I cannot believe that much is possible) that’s about £720 so ten years pay back. The maths isn’t there. I think vehicle to grid will be more important - most of the time I am not really using most of the capacity of my iPace battery so probably have 20 kWh “spare” that with the right configuration (doesn’t exist yet) I could buy from the grid in the middle of the night and sell at peak demand late afternoon / early evening. That will assist with balancing demand on the grid and local charging demand too - or go some way to doing so anyway

Absolutely. It does not work. Private owners don’t have to show investors that they are being green like Walmart and Amazon do while stripping the planet of resources to feed the never ending hunger of rampant excess consumers out of control.

So sane person wants ten thousand incendiary devices clogging up their entire hallway or a load of hugely expensive roof tiles that do absolutely bugger all.

Also, driving around with massive batteries that you rarely actually need is equally non environmental but if you can tie that mobile battery pack into a sensible energy supply and use program that makes both your car and home more efficient then it can start to make a bit of sense.

Linking home demand in with a car’s secure storage capabilities and complimenting that with access to either free offsite power acquisition or discounted overnight electricity purchasing and that all begins to make real sense and looks to be a really good step forward.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 29th August 09:31

[squirdan]

using the car as a power storage device is exactly what Octopus are doing now with the latest Leaf, as a complete holistic solution (car, plus elec supply, plus charger)

so its incorrect to say the technology doesnt exist yet...

you have to sign up to a deal which includes the car being plugged in and connected for a certain number of hours a day, on average, this is so they can feed power back to the grid (V2G) rather than just charging the car

it makes perfect sense to me. But I dont want a Leaf !

[DonkeyApple]

squirdan said:

using the car as a power storage device is exactly what Octopus are doing now with the latest Leaf, as a complete holistic solution (car, plus elec supply, plus charger)

so its incorrect to say the technology doesnt exist yet...

you have to sign up to a deal which includes the car being plugged in and connected for a certain number of hours a day, on average, this is so they can feed power back to the grid (V2G) rather than just charging the car

it makes perfect sense to me. But I dont want a Leaf !

I don’t think anyone said it didn’t exist.

[oop north]

I said the right configuration doesn't exist yet - and it doesn't for anything other than a Leaf. And then I think it is only current / very recent Leafs. I don't have a Leaf

[Heres Johnny]

DonkeyApple said:

squirdan said:

using the car as a power storage device is exactly what Octopus are doing now with the latest Leaf, as a complete holistic solution (car, plus elec supply, plus charger)

so its incorrect to say the technology doesnt exist yet...

you have to sign up to a deal which includes the car being plugged in and connected for a certain number of hours a day, on average, this is so they can feed power back to the grid (V2G) rather than just charging the car

it makes perfect sense to me. But I dont want a Leaf !

I don’t think anyone said it didn’t exist.

I can't see it being a long term approach though. The costs of storage are going to fall and the idea of using the car battery to be the buffer and run the risk of the inconvenience of going out to your car and finding a half flat battery isn't going to wash long term. Couple that with the idea of V2G is to smooth out the electricity demand for renewables, the peak national consumption is during the day which is also the time we have solar, electric car charging is often done over night when we have less solar - so are we going to take energy out of car batteries to support charging of cars? Or are we going to need to have electric cars plugged in during the day which is the time they generally aren't? All seems a bit of a contradiction to me.

Battery costs are predicted to fall to below a £100 a kwh, I think the current average household consumption is around 15kwh, a whole days consumption could be stored for a couple of grand and you don't need to store a whole days consumption.

What we really need to make the grid more green is to increase renewables that work in winter and bridge the cold windless days that can goo on for a week or so. A car battery and V2G isn't going to help that.

Edited by Heres Johnny on Thursday 29th August 10:58

[DonkeyApple]

Heres Johnny said:

I can't see it being a long term approach though. The costs of storage are going to fall and the idea of using the car battery to be the buffer and run the risk of the inconvenience of going out to your car and finding a half flat battery isn't going to wash long term. Couple that with the idea of V2G is to smooth out the electricity demand for renewables, the peak national consumption is during the day which is also the time we have solar, electric car charging is often done over night when we have less solar - so are we going to take energy out of car batteries to support charging of cars? Or are we going to need to have electric cars plugged in during the day which is the time they generally aren't? All seems a bit of a contradiction to me.

Battery costs are predicted to fall to below a £100 a kwh, I think the current average household consumption is around 15kwh, a whole days consumption could be stored for a couple of grand and you don't need to store a whole days consumption.

What we really need to make the grid more green is to increase renewables that work in winter and bridge the cold windless days that can goo on for a week or so. A car battery and V2G isn't going to help that.

Edited by Heres Johnny on Thursday 29th August 10:58

Agree. Musk’s overall idea is solid but it’s not going to happen today. The future for homes is arguably for them to generate any power that they can.

What’s key about cars and houses is that they tend to naturally fall into a pretty symbiotic relationship in terms of energy consumption. When one is consuming power the other tends not to be. With the added benefit that up to a third of the day neither are consumer power simultaneously. That should mean that energy efficiency can be created through linking the two together.

It’s practical to imagine that many suburban households could recharge the car in the early morning hours when neither the home or the car are consumer much power but power is at its cheapest, while the car is away from the home during the working hours the home could generate revenue via the letting of its parking and charging capability to a third party commuter then in the evenings the peak home demand could be met by your stationary car outside, instead of the grid, and then you’re back into the early morning hours when it is charged back up etc.

Down the line domestic power generation and storage can be added to the model for increased efficiency.

[jjwilde]

Musk is likely hoping that governments will soon insist new builds have to have some kind of powerwall in them. I know the solar industry has been hoping that would happen with panels for years now.

It might happen and he will lobby for it being his units. It's a hedge bet. In 10 years that the way things are progressing it could be a good bet.

[DonkeyApple]

jjwilde said:

Musk is likely hoping that governments will soon insist new builds have to have some kind of powerwall in them. I know the solar industry has been hoping that would happen with panels for years now.

It might happen and he will lobby for it being his units. It's a hedge bet. In 10 years that the way things are progressing it could be a good bet.

Yup but other firms are ahead of him and he could have paid $1 for SolarCity off the receivers a week later instead of bunging millions of other people’s cash to his family. The real issue is that this is inventor his fk ups that has meant that time is not his best friend at the moment.

[skwdenyer]

DonkeyApple said:

jjwilde said:

Musk is likely hoping that governments will soon insist new builds have to have some kind of powerwall in them. I know the solar industry has been hoping that would happen with panels for years now.

It might happen and he will lobby for it being his units. It's a hedge bet. In 10 years that the way things are progressing it could be a good bet.

Yup but other firms are ahead of him and he could have paid $1 for SolarCity off the receivers a week later instead of bunging millions of other people’s cash to his family. The real issue is that this is inventor his fk ups that has meant that time is not his best friend at the moment.

Wasn't it the case that a majority of non-Musk shareholders approved the deal?

[DonkeyApple]

skwdenyer said:

DonkeyApple said:

jjwilde said:

Musk is likely hoping that governments will soon insist new builds have to have some kind of powerwall in them. I know the solar industry has been hoping that would happen with panels for years now.

It might happen and he will lobby for it being his units. It's a hedge bet. In 10 years that the way things are progressing it could be a good bet.

Yup but other firms are ahead of him and he could have paid $1 for SolarCity off the receivers a week later instead of bunging millions of other people’s cash to his family. The real issue is that this is inventor his fk ups that has meant that time is not his best friend at the moment.

Wasn't it the case that a majority of non-Musk shareholders approved the deal?

Or it wouldn’t have happened. The legal grumbles are related to what they were sold on doesn’t appear to have resulted in what they’ve ended up with. They appear to have a view that someone may have told them a bit of a jackanory.

[skwdenyer]

DonkeyApple said:

skwdenyer said:

DonkeyApple said:

jjwilde said:

Musk is likely hoping that governments will soon insist new builds have to have some kind of powerwall in them. I know the solar industry has been hoping that would happen with panels for years now.

It might happen and he will lobby for it being his units. It's a hedge bet. In 10 years that the way things are progressing it could be a good bet.

Yup but other firms are ahead of him and he could have paid $1 for SolarCity off the receivers a week later instead of bunging millions of other people’s cash to his family. The real issue is that this is inventor his fk ups that has meant that time is not his best friend at the moment.

Wasn't it the case that a majority of non-Musk shareholders approved the deal?

Or it wouldn’t have happened. The legal grumbles are related to what they were sold on doesn’t appear to have resulted in what they’ve ended up with. They appear to have a view that someone may have told them a bit of a jackanory.

Given that the press and media were fairly full of nay-sayers at the time, it seems unlikely to me that those shareholders stayed in a media-free bubble and listened only to Musk

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

A car battery and V2G isn't going to help that.

100%, the idea of wasting the most expensive part of the car in exchange for tiny cost of grid exportation is madness.

From what I understand the cell chemistry in Tesla power wall packs are also different from that in the car? Certainly the combustion potential seems much less than the car packs.

https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpac...

[gangzoom]

DonkeyApple said:

So just why is it that you wouldn’t replace your roof tiles with Tesla tiles and at the back of your garage or utility room install a very stylish and cool Tesla powerwall.................

................The simple answer is that it is just a load of st that doesn’t work and never worked

What exactly is your points, solar PV is rubbish? Local battery electricity storage doesn't work??

We have a very modest 4KW PV panel, it's generating on average 3000kWh per year, that's actually more no-EV charging electricity we use up every year.

I'm currently just waiting for WesterPower to give us the 'OK' to install a referral prize PowerWall, it will be interesting to see how much it reduces our grid demand - certainly our day time use will drop to 0 kWh, even in the middle of winter as we'll charge the PowerWall overnight (like the car) with cheap electricity if there isn't enough solar.

If the numbers look good when we do the house extension am certainly going to get another 4-6KW of solar PV added, which might warranty another PowerWall -However with Solar PV VAT going up to 20% very soon the numbers will certainly not justify it, but life isn't always about numbers.

Personally I really cannot see why anyone wouldn't want to reduce their grid consumption if they can.