Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...

[Gandahar]

SWoll said:

LG9k said:

jamoor said:

My primary purpose for buying an electric car is that its a superior product in almost every conceivable way and it was relatively cheap once running costs are taken into account compared to other cars I've owned.

Didn't give a stuff about the environment then and I still don't.

An EV is not a superior product as it still involves, on occasion, more inconvenience than a petrol car.
As I've told you several times already, it doesn't (yet) work out cheaper for my use case.

jamoor said:

it's not pointless, it takes me about 15 seconds to plug it in and its always charged, if it's hot or cold then it will draw power from the mains to heat/cool the car before you set off. And its the cheapest method of charging (apart from free charging points)

Some inconsistency on how long it takes, some saying 15 seconds, others saying 30. I reckon coiling and uncoiling the cable must take a little bit of time.
Heating or cooling the car before one sets off is irrelevant to me, and a total waste of energy.

Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

Fuelled up the MX5 today and on the way back from Tesco's petrol station the BBR turbo conversion was still trying to work out the right mapping in these cold conditions, so I got a lovely lot of pops and bangs and then short shifting from 1st to 2nd at slow and then hitting it still got a nice wiggle from the back at 20mph .. even with the quaife mechanical LSD.

That was just fun in less than 2 miles, what us ICE guys call "dicking about" and as I am over 50 years I get to wear my

GO BOOMER

badge with pride.

That's why ICE is superior, an EV car is just a small tram where you don't have to talk to other EV minded folk like you because you'd rather not. And they smell of BO rather than petrol and oily fingernails.....
Either way it's boring. And yes 0-60 in 3s is boring after a while I'd guess after learning your one trick pony is a donkey around the corners.

This is not boring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0JlQeCeExs


"Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior."

Are you sure you're on the right forum?

Edited by Gandahar on Monday 2nd December 16:58

[jamoor]

Gandahar said:

SWoll said:

LG9k said:

jamoor said:

My primary purpose for buying an electric car is that its a superior product in almost every conceivable way and it was relatively cheap once running costs are taken into account compared to other cars I've owned.

Didn't give a stuff about the environment then and I still don't.

An EV is not a superior product as it still involves, on occasion, more inconvenience than a petrol car.
As I've told you several times already, it doesn't (yet) work out cheaper for my use case.

jamoor said:

it's not pointless, it takes me about 15 seconds to plug it in and its always charged, if it's hot or cold then it will draw power from the mains to heat/cool the car before you set off. And its the cheapest method of charging (apart from free charging points)

Some inconsistency on how long it takes, some saying 15 seconds, others saying 30. I reckon coiling and uncoiling the cable must take a little bit of time.
Heating or cooling the car before one sets off is irrelevant to me, and a total waste of energy.

Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

Fuelled up the MX5 today and on the way back from Tesco's petrol station the BBR turbo conversion was still trying to work out the right mapping in these cold conditions, so I got a lovely lot of pops and bangs and then short shifting from 1st to 2nd at slow and then hitting it still got a nice wiggle from the back at 20mph .. even with the quaife mechanical LSD.

That was just fun in less than 2 miles, what us ICE guys call "dicking about" and as I am over 50 years I get to wear my

GO BOOMER

badge with pride.

That's why ICE is superior, an EV car is just a small tram where you don't have to talk to other EV minded folk like you because you'd rather not. And they smell of BO rather than petrol and oily fingernails.....
Either way it's boring. And yes 0-60 in 3s is boring after a while I'd guess after learning your one trick pony is a donkey around the corners.

This is not boring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0JlQeCeExs


"Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior."

Are you sure you're on the right forum?

Edited by Gandahar on Monday 2nd December 16:58

Have you even owned an electric car?

I bought an electric car because I’m a petrolhead. It’s a very good driving and ownership experience.

[Gandahar]

jamoor said:

Gandahar said:

SWoll said:

LG9k said:

jamoor said:

My primary purpose for buying an electric car is that its a superior product in almost every conceivable way and it was relatively cheap once running costs are taken into account compared to other cars I've owned.

Didn't give a stuff about the environment then and I still don't.

An EV is not a superior product as it still involves, on occasion, more inconvenience than a petrol car.
As I've told you several times already, it doesn't (yet) work out cheaper for my use case.

jamoor said:

it's not pointless, it takes me about 15 seconds to plug it in and its always charged, if it's hot or cold then it will draw power from the mains to heat/cool the car before you set off. And its the cheapest method of charging (apart from free charging points)

Some inconsistency on how long it takes, some saying 15 seconds, others saying 30. I reckon coiling and uncoiling the cable must take a little bit of time.
Heating or cooling the car before one sets off is irrelevant to me, and a total waste of energy.

Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

Fuelled up the MX5 today and on the way back from Tesco's petrol station the BBR turbo conversion was still trying to work out the right mapping in these cold conditions, so I got a lovely lot of pops and bangs and then short shifting from 1st to 2nd at slow and then hitting it still got a nice wiggle from the back at 20mph .. even with the quaife mechanical LSD.

That was just fun in less than 2 miles, what us ICE guys call "dicking about" and as I am over 50 years I get to wear my

GO BOOMER

badge with pride.

That's why ICE is superior, an EV car is just a small tram where you don't have to talk to other EV minded folk like you because you'd rather not. And they smell of BO rather than petrol and oily fingernails.....
Either way it's boring. And yes 0-60 in 3s is boring after a while I'd guess after learning your one trick pony is a donkey around the corners.

This is not boring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0JlQeCeExs


"Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior."

Are you sure you're on the right forum?

Edited by Gandahar on Monday 2nd December 16:58

Have you even owned an electric car?

I bought an electric car because I’m a petrolhead. It’s a very good driving and ownership experience.

No but I drove a dodgems once at the fayre,

It probably gave a far better experience because you could get the instant torque whilst bashing into folk, watching the sparks fly and the handling was far better as the electricity supply was from the overhead supply so the cars were light. No big batteries to drag about.

Is your EV car more fun than the dodgems at the fayre or my BBR MX5 petrol, yes or no ?

Don't get me wrong, they are a great way to replace my Yaris or any other A to B car. I'll be first up for that when they can get the cost down because when getting a car that bores you to death, at least do it cheaply....


PS "It’s a very good driving and ownership experience." sounds like Alan Partridge trying to sell his chocolate oranges. At least put some effort into the hard sell!

Edited by Gandahar on Monday 2nd December 20:43

[Gandahar]

[hyphen]

EVs are good as they keep the green nuts off vehicle drivers backs, as EVs takes away the localised pollution argument.

I saw some poor sod cycling away uphill in the dark, carrying his shopping in two bags on either side of his bike. It was freezing and raining.

fk that, I'll take any EV over that st so rarely do you see a happy smiling cyclist, they all look miserable.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Gandahar said:

as I am over 50 years I get to wear my

GO BOOMER

badge with pride.

Over 55 I hope pre 1965 or you are gen X

[Gandahar]

hyphen said:

EVs are good as they keep the green nuts off vehicle drivers backs, as EVs takes away the localised pollution argument.

I saw some poor sod cycling away uphill in the dark, carrying his shopping in two bags on either side of his bike. It was freezing and raining.

fk that, I'll take any EV over that st so rarely do you see a happy smiling cyclist, they all look miserable.

they need some electicity

Still the best EV bike vid on the net. Cracking bunch of blokes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUL56vrK75I

So many fun one liners.

[Gandahar]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Gandahar said:

as I am over 50 years I get to wear my

GO BOOMER

badge with pride.

Over 55 I hope pre 1965 or you are gen X

I went to monsters of Rock to see AC DC and had a bottle of cider thrown over me in one of the bottle fights that was

surprisingly warm

Not sure what that makes me?

[Gandahar]

this thread has gone so far off topic Elon will have sent it into space.

Tesla shares doing ok today.

Next thing of note for here and Tesla is the November sales in Europe. October was very low after the glut of September, but I expect them to increase in November.

However, I think Tesla Europe sales will be just simmering on the pot rather than boiling all the way to March.

Meanwhile Elon sent a tweet advising to buy now for US peeps before the incentives fall off in the new year.

[jamoor]

It's not even a sell, just drive one.

[SWoll]

Gandahar said:

You need to at least try one before dismissing them.

The i3 is great fun with RWD, 170 bhp, skinny tyres and instant throttle response.

My Model 3 P arrives Wednesday so can't confirm yet but I'm hoping for a similar experience to the tuned Impreza I had back in my 20's only quicker and without all the noise.

Plan to add something ICE powered and convertible next year as a weekend toy but for daily transport EV has got ICE licked as far as I'm concerned.

[Tuna]

SWoll said:

Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

Overall weight. Range of packaging options to suit extremes of size/range requirements. Emergency refuelling. Cold weather performance. Driver engagement. Sound. Multi-fuel and bio-fuel capabilities.

After over 100 years of development, ICE is not exactly banging rocks together.

[jamoor]

Tuna said:

SWoll said:

Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

Overall weight. Range of packaging options to suit extremes of size/range requirements. Emergency refuelling. Cold weather performance. Driver engagement. Sound. Multi-fuel and bio-fuel capabilities.

After over 100 years of development, ICE is not exactly banging rocks together.

I'm curios to know your argument for weight? To me the Model 3 seems about the same weight as the competition, same with leaf and its competitors?

Driver engagement? I'd say instant power if far more engaging than having to make sure you're in the correct gear.

Edited by jamoor on Monday 2nd December 23:11

[jamoor]

jamoor said:

Tuna said:

SWoll said:

Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

Overall weight. Range of packaging options to suit extremes of size/range requirements. Emergency refuelling. Cold weather performance. Driver engagement. Sound. Multi-fuel and bio-fuel capabilities.

After over 100 years of development, ICE is not exactly banging rocks together.

I'm curios to know your argument for weight? To me the Model 3 seems about the same weight as the competition, same with leaf and its competitors?

Driver engagement? I'd say instant power if far more engaging than having to make sure you're in the correct gear.
Electricity can be generated from a multitude of sources, whereas petrol, diesel (which is no longer a viable option IMO) is kind of limited.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Gandahar said:

I went to monsters of Rock to see AC DC and had a bottle of cider thrown over me in one of the bottle fights that was

surprisingly warm

Not sure what that makes me?

The one who caught my piss bottle

[ZesPak]

Tuna said:

Overall weight. Range of packaging options to suit extremes of size/range requirements. Emergency refuelling. Cold weather performance. Driver engagement. Sound. Multi-fuel and bio-fuel capabilities.

After over 100 years of development, ICE is not exactly banging rocks together.

None of these arguments hold up besides maybe cold weather performance.

Multi fuel in particular is a ridiculous answer if I ever saw one against EV.
But sound? You really want to tell me "it makes a racket" makes it superior somehow.
My Tesla can do that and then some, it has all the speakers it needs.

[SWoll]

Tuna said:

SWoll said:

Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

Overall weight. Range of packaging options to suit extremes of size/range requirements. Emergency refuelling. Cold weather performance. Driver engagement. Sound. Multi-fuel and bio-fuel capabilities.

After over 100 years of development, ICE is not exactly banging rocks together.

Overall weight - Model 3 has similar interior space to a BMW 5 Series and weighs about the same. It's all down low though rather than slung out in front.

Range of packaging options - Much more versatility with EV powertain than ICE. No massive transmission tunnels or long bonnets needed.

Emergency fuelling - I can charge from a 3-pin plug or at any one of 16k chargers across the UK.

Cold weather performance - Not much different to ICE inefficiencies when you look at the numbers. For most drivers not an issue due to limited range requirements anyway.

Driver engagement - Our i3 is great fun and much more engaging to drive than the majority of ICE hatchbacks I've tried in the past 10 years. Hoping the Model 3 will also be good fun as the majority of reviews suggest.

Sound - How many cars sound good nowadays? The move to smaller capacity blown engines has made this a moot point in most cases.

Multi Fuel - Grasping at straws much?

[Tuna]

OK, that's stirred up some debate...

Overall weight/packaging - think micro scooters, tuk-tuks, scaling all the way up to the Belaz 75710. EVs are still stuck in a 'sweet spot' where the battery and range work together. Step outside of that range, and you're struggling.

Or a more direct comparison - the BMW i3 is a 'lightweight' EV at 1395kg.... the Mitsubishi Mirage is a lightweight ICE - at 895Kg.

Emergency fuelling - I run out of fuel on the A66, five miles from the nearest village. I can go get a can of fuel and off I go. In an EV, I can't go and buy a pack of Duracells.

Engagement and sound - remind me what powers formula one cars? Or... ask people if an automatic or manual is more engaging... Or, go visit youtube and search for 'exhaust sound'.

This is all rather tounge in cheek, or course, but when people post

swoll said:

I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

there's going to be a bit of teasing


...oh and I mention things like multi-fuelling to show that the evolution of ICE isn't quite over yet

Edited by Tuna on Tuesday 3rd December 21:56

[DonkeyApple]

Tuna said:

OK, that's stirred up some debate...

Overall weight/packaging - think micro scooters, tuk-tuks, scaling all the way up to the Belaz 75710. EVs are still stuck in a 'sweet spot' where the battery and range work together. Step outside of that range, and you're struggling.

Or a more direct comparison - the BMW i3 is a 'lightweight' EV at 1395kg.... the Mitsubishi Mirage is a lightweight ICE - at 895Kg.

Emergency fuelling - I run out of fuel on the A66, five miles from the nearest village. I can go get a can of fuel and off I go. In an EV, I can't go and buy a pack of Duracells.

Engagement and sound - remind me what powers formula one cars? Or... ask people if an automatic or manual is more engaging... Or, go visit youtube and search for 'exhaust sound'.

This is all rather tounge in cheek, or course, but when people post

swoll said:

I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

there's going to be a bit of teasing


...oh and I mention things like multi-fuelling to show that the evolution of ICE isn't quite over yet

Edited by Tuna on Tuesday 3rd December 21:56

Step outside of our cosseted, first world, affluent environment and you really see that EVs have an extremely long way to go. You don’t even need to travel far, just to Southern Europe, let alone the wider world to see the desperate need for EVs is at the bottom end of the market where there simply isn’t the wealth to make the change.

As EV fans we need to be very careful that we don’t slip into that easy parochial view of our own tiny economic microcosm and start thinking that EVs are remotely a viable proposition for the masses yet and remain toys, indulgences for the more affluent minority.

Even in China, the only market with large adoption it has only been achieved by effectively banning large numbers of consumers from buying ICE and borrowing trillions to subsidise battery and car factories because of the total lack of free market economics currently available to EVs.

As for how EVs drive, that’s another baffling and unnecessary issue with Tesla’s. The packaging advantage of batteries should enable EVsbto be more easily built than ICE to handle well but the S is a drag racing barge that is desperate to understeer while reviews of the 3 tend to show that they aren’t much different. The i3 seems well balanced and is fun to sling down a lane but Tesla’s handling serves to highlight yet again the provincial thinking of a company with a US mindset. They could do with seeking some help from the likes of Prodrive or Lotus bit in fairness, at the moment their consumernbase simply doesn’t care about these things but are focussed on other attributes and maybe that won’t ever change for this brand.

[jamoor]

DonkeyApple said:

Tuna said:

OK, that's stirred up some debate...

Overall weight/packaging - think micro scooters, tuk-tuks, scaling all the way up to the Belaz 75710. EVs are still stuck in a 'sweet spot' where the battery and range work together. Step outside of that range, and you're struggling.

Or a more direct comparison - the BMW i3 is a 'lightweight' EV at 1395kg.... the Mitsubishi Mirage is a lightweight ICE - at 895Kg.

Emergency fuelling - I run out of fuel on the A66, five miles from the nearest village. I can go get a can of fuel and off I go. In an EV, I can't go and buy a pack of Duracells.

Engagement and sound - remind me what powers formula one cars? Or... ask people if an automatic or manual is more engaging... Or, go visit youtube and search for 'exhaust sound'.

This is all rather tounge in cheek, or course, but when people post

swoll said:

I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.

there's going to be a bit of teasing


...oh and I mention things like multi-fuelling to show that the evolution of ICE isn't quite over yet

Edited by Tuna on Tuesday 3rd December 21:56

Step outside of our cosseted, first world, affluent environment and you really see that EVs have an extremely long way to go. You don’t even need to travel far, just to Southern Europe, let alone the wider world to see the desperate need for EVs is at the bottom end of the market where there simply isn’t the wealth to make the change.

As EV fans we need to be very careful that we don’t slip into that easy parochial view of our own tiny economic microcosm and start thinking that EVs are remotely a viable proposition for the masses yet and remain toys, indulgences for the more affluent minority.

Even in China, the only market with large adoption it has only been achieved by effectively banning large numbers of consumers from buying ICE and borrowing trillions to subsidise battery and car factories because of the total lack of free market economics currently available to EVs.

As for how EVs drive, that’s another baffling and unnecessary issue with Tesla’s. The packaging advantage of batteries should enable EVsbto be more easily built than ICE to handle well but the S is a drag racing barge that is desperate to understeer while reviews of the 3 tend to show that they aren’t much different. The i3 seems well balanced and is fun to sling down a lane but Tesla’s handling serves to highlight yet again the provincial thinking of a company with a US mindset. They could do with seeking some help from the likes of Prodrive or Lotus bit in fairness, at the moment their consumernbase simply doesn’t care about these things but are focussed on other attributes and maybe that won’t ever change for this brand.

After reading all of this I'm 100% sure you haven't driven a Model S or a Model 3.

I suggest you test drive them (just book online, no obligation) then come back.

For the developing countries, I've no idea when we will see Suzuki knocking out £7k electric Swifts.

But at least the change is beginning, new technologies are always expensive then come down in price over time.