Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
SWoll said:
Tuna said:
SWoll said:
Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.
Overall weight. Range of packaging options to suit extremes of size/range requirements. Emergency refuelling. Cold weather performance. Driver engagement. Sound. Multi-fuel and bio-fuel capabilities.After over 100 years of development, ICE is not exactly banging rocks together.
Range of packaging options - Much more versatility with EV powertain than ICE. No massive transmission tunnels or long bonnets needed.
Emergency fuelling - I can charge from a 3-pin plug or at any one of 16k chargers across the UK.
Cold weather performance - Not much different to ICE inefficiencies when you look at the numbers. For most drivers not an issue due to limited range requirements anyway.
Driver engagement - Our i3 is great fun and much more engaging to drive than the majority of ICE hatchbacks I've tried in the past 10 years. Hoping the Model 3 will also be good fun as the majority of reviews suggest.
Sound - How many cars sound good nowadays? The move to smaller capacity blown engines has made this a moot point in most cases.
Multi Fuel - Grasping at straws much?
“Seems to be happy as long as you're agreeing with him but suggest an alternative and you're either deluded, stupid or lying apparently. Doesn't make for much of a debate.“
Rather ironic don’t you think?
Most of your post above is just wrong.
REALIST123 said:
SWoll said:
Tuna said:
SWoll said:
Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.
Overall weight. Range of packaging options to suit extremes of size/range requirements. Emergency refuelling. Cold weather performance. Driver engagement. Sound. Multi-fuel and bio-fuel capabilities.After over 100 years of development, ICE is not exactly banging rocks together.
Range of packaging options - Much more versatility with EV powertain than ICE. No massive transmission tunnels or long bonnets needed.
Emergency fuelling - I can charge from a 3-pin plug or at any one of 16k chargers across the UK.
Cold weather performance - Not much different to ICE inefficiencies when you look at the numbers. For most drivers not an issue due to limited range requirements anyway.
Driver engagement - Our i3 is great fun and much more engaging to drive than the majority of ICE hatchbacks I've tried in the past 10 years. Hoping the Model 3 will also be good fun as the majority of reviews suggest.
Sound - How many cars sound good nowadays? The move to smaller capacity blown engines has made this a moot point in most cases.
Multi Fuel - Grasping at straws much?
“Seems to be happy as long as you're agreeing with him but suggest an alternative and you're either deluded, stupid or lying apparently. Doesn't make for much of a debate.“
Rather ironic don’t you think?
Most of your post above is just wrong.
Neither I or anyone I know has ever ran out of petrol on the side of the M6 on a cold February evening because they fil up before it gets to that.
Gandahar said:
this thread has gone so far off topic Elon will have sent it into space.
Tesla shares doing ok today.
Next thing of note for here and Tesla is the November sales in Europe. October was very low after the glut of September, but I expect them to increase in November.
However, I think Tesla Europe sales will be just simmering on the pot rather than boiling all the way to March.
Meanwhile Elon sent a tweet advising to buy now for US peeps before the incentives fall off in the new year.
And Uber? If we're about keeping the thread on topic. Where's the Uber chat? Tesla shares doing ok today.
Next thing of note for here and Tesla is the November sales in Europe. October was very low after the glut of September, but I expect them to increase in November.
However, I think Tesla Europe sales will be just simmering on the pot rather than boiling all the way to March.
Meanwhile Elon sent a tweet advising to buy now for US peeps before the incentives fall off in the new year.
jamoor said:
After reading all of this I'm 100% sure you haven't driven a Model S or a Model 3.
I suggest you test drive them (just book online, no obligation) then come back.
For the developing countries, I've no idea when we will see Suzuki knocking out £7k electric Swifts.
But at least the change is beginning, new technologies are always expensive then come down in price over time.
Driven the S. it didn’t like pressing on and needed to be driven like a TVR or worse, an 80s Audi. Not driven a 3 and to be honest I wouldn’t waste a salesman’s time as I have no use for a mid sized saloon. I suggest you test drive them (just book online, no obligation) then come back.
For the developing countries, I've no idea when we will see Suzuki knocking out £7k electric Swifts.
But at least the change is beginning, new technologies are always expensive then come down in price over time.
The change is beginning, that’s why we are having these discussions. I firmly believe the change will come. I am simply at odds with those who hold a view that it is here or coming soon or that these products currently remain anything other than niche and indulgences for the few who have excess money to throw about. They aren’t yet practical or all round solutions to compete against ICE on the free market. In fact, drop the subsidies and the products will disappear, that’s just how far away we are today.
Tuna said:
SWoll said:
Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior.
Overall weight. Range of packaging options to suit extremes of size/range requirements. Emergency refuelling. Cold weather performance. Driver engagement. Sound. Multi-fuel and bio-fuel capabilities..
You forgot to mention price and depreciation.
Using air con will also reduce the range.
Gandahar said:
jamoor said:
Gandahar said:
SWoll said:
LG9k said:
jamoor said:
My primary purpose for buying an electric car is that its a superior product in almost every conceivable way and it was relatively cheap once running costs are taken into account compared to other cars I've owned.
Didn't give a stuff about the environment then and I still don't.
An EV is not a superior product as it still involves, on occasion, more inconvenience than a petrol car.Didn't give a stuff about the environment then and I still don't.
As I've told you several times already, it doesn't (yet) work out cheaper for my use case.
jamoor said:
it's not pointless, it takes me about 15 seconds to plug it in and its always charged, if it's hot or cold then it will draw power from the mains to heat/cool the car before you set off. And its the cheapest method of charging (apart from free charging points)
Some inconsistency on how long it takes, some saying 15 seconds, others saying 30. I reckon coiling and uncoiling the cable must take a little bit of time.Heating or cooling the car before one sets off is irrelevant to me, and a total waste of energy.
That was just fun in less than 2 miles, what us ICE guys call "dicking about" and as I am over 50 years I get to wear my
GO BOOMER
badge with pride.
That's why ICE is superior, an EV car is just a small tram where you don't have to talk to other EV minded folk like you because you'd rather not. And they smell of BO rather than petrol and oily fingernails.....
Either way it's boring. And yes 0-60 in 3s is boring after a while I'd guess after learning your one trick pony is a donkey around the corners.
This is not boring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0JlQeCeExs
"Other than outright range for occasional long journeys I'm yet to find a way in which ICE is superior."
Are you sure you're on the right forum?
Edited by Gandahar on Monday 2nd December 16:58
I bought an electric car because I’m a petrolhead. It’s a very good driving and ownership experience.
It probably gave a far better experience because you could get the instant torque whilst bashing into folk, watching the sparks fly and the handling was far better as the electricity supply was from the overhead supply so the cars were light. No big batteries to drag about.
Is your EV car more fun than the dodgems at the fayre or my BBR MX5 petrol, yes or no ?
Don't get me wrong, they are a great way to replace my Yaris or any other A to B car. I'll be first up for that when they can get the cost down because when getting a car that bores you to death, at least do it cheaply....
PS "It’s a very good driving and ownership experience." sounds like Alan Partridge trying to sell his chocolate oranges. At least put some effort into the hard sell!
Edited by Gandahar on Monday 2nd December 20:43
If you don't like them , don't buy one . But don't pretend they are crap just because you like something that "doesn't get the fuelling correct when its cold "
Drive a decent ev ( one with sporty credentials , not a Leaf etc which doesn't aim to be sporty ( but may be fun ) ) , tell me you can't have fun in one and I'll call you a politician ......
T-195 said:
You forgot to mention price and depreciation.
Using air con will also reduce the range.
https://uk.motor1.com/news/384790/used-evs-appreci...
and watch diesels dive of a cliff over the next few years
Donkey have you even read the road to zero plan? Your comments don't read to me like you have. If you want to pretend to be an authority on EV economics, I'd suggest it's required reading.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reducin...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reducin...
Sambucket said:
Donkey have you even read the road to zero plan? Your comments don't read to me like you have. If you want to pretend to be an authority on EV economics, I'd suggest it's required reading.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reducin...
I know what the plan is. It’s others that could do with reading it to understand the length of time involved. And they could also do with getting hold of an atlas and working out what a small island will achieve on a global scale when we have already outsourced the bulk of our filth production to the third world. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reducin...
DonkeyApple said:
Sambucket said:
Donkey have you even read the road to zero plan? Your comments don't read to me like you have. If you want to pretend to be an authority on EV economics, I'd suggest it's required reading.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reducin...
I know what the plan is. It’s others that could do with reading it to understand the length of time involved. And they could also do with getting hold of an atlas and working out what a small island will achieve on a global scale when we have already outsourced the bulk of our filth production to the third world. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reducin...
I found it fascinating, and although they said there were some things they couldn’t announce due to the election campaigning rules, it was clear that the Road to Zero policy is likely to be updated soon, to recommend doing more, sooner (bringing forward the cut-off point of banning ICE sales was one of the main points, and including all ICE’d cars, even hybrids and range extenders).
Loads of aspects of the plan were discussed, and the Q&A was quite interesting as well, but the main take away point was that although the “road to zero” is not straightforward, the technology is basically in place already, and the relative difficulty of decarbonising agriculture, shipping, and aviation, means that power generation and land transport will almost certainly have to take the biggest share of the burden, and sooner than originally planned as well. Memorable quote from the chairman on the panel was “Essentially by 2050, the number of miles travelled on UK roads powered by Fossil fuel must be zero. No two ways about it.”
Make if that what you will but I got the impression that it’s happening right now whether we like it or not.
Of course a new government could radically change things in either direction I guess. Who knows?
TeaNoSugar said:
I recently attended the Highways UK show (for work, not out of choice!) and a presentation on Road to Zero caught my eye - everything else looked incredibly boring - so I sat in on it. It was presented by a panel comprising one of the big cheeses on the government advisory panel, someone from the national grid, a solicitor specialising in government policy on transportation, and another chap representing the ev charging network in some capacity. Apologies I can’t remember their names or job titles but I do recall they were all pretty senior within the stakeholder organisations they were representing!
I found it fascinating, and although they said there were some things they couldn’t announce due to the election campaigning rules, it was clear that the Road to Zero policy is likely to be updated soon, to recommend doing more, sooner (bringing forward the cut-off point of banning ICE sales was one of the main points, and including all ICE’d cars, even hybrids and range extenders).
Loads of aspects of the plan were discussed, and the Q&A was quite interesting as well, but the main take away point was that although the “road to zero” is not straightforward, the technology is basically in place already, and the relative difficulty of decarbonising agriculture, shipping, and aviation, means that power generation and land transport will almost certainly have to take the biggest share of the burden, and sooner than originally planned as well. Memorable quote from the chairman on the panel was “Essentially by 2050, the number of miles travelled on UK roads powered by Fossil fuel must be zero. No two ways about it.”
Make if that what you will but I got the impression that it’s happening right now whether we like it or not.
Of course a new government could radically change things in either direction I guess. Who knows?
Cynical hat on, did you think for a second that there was a chance that the chap representing the electricity people, or the chap that represents the electricity charging people would say anything else, even if they knew it not to be true? I found it fascinating, and although they said there were some things they couldn’t announce due to the election campaigning rules, it was clear that the Road to Zero policy is likely to be updated soon, to recommend doing more, sooner (bringing forward the cut-off point of banning ICE sales was one of the main points, and including all ICE’d cars, even hybrids and range extenders).
Loads of aspects of the plan were discussed, and the Q&A was quite interesting as well, but the main take away point was that although the “road to zero” is not straightforward, the technology is basically in place already, and the relative difficulty of decarbonising agriculture, shipping, and aviation, means that power generation and land transport will almost certainly have to take the biggest share of the burden, and sooner than originally planned as well. Memorable quote from the chairman on the panel was “Essentially by 2050, the number of miles travelled on UK roads powered by Fossil fuel must be zero. No two ways about it.”
Make if that what you will but I got the impression that it’s happening right now whether we like it or not.
Of course a new government could radically change things in either direction I guess. Who knows?
SWoll said:
Why would warming up your car when it's -2 degrees outside (which also defrosts all of the windows) be irrelevant to anyone? Or indeed cooing it down on a day when it's 30 degrees? Uses the same amount of energy as doing it once you are in the car so how is it a waste either?
Think about it a bit more and you'll see it's a waste.jjwilde said:
Deutsche Bank reckon Tesla are going to announce the model Y is to start shipping in Q1 2020 and that they are well ahead of schedule on it.
This fits in with the previous rumour that Elon was told to say Q4 2020 so Tesla could be early with a product for once.
This is what happens when you have experience.This fits in with the previous rumour that Elon was told to say Q4 2020 so Tesla could be early with a product for once.
Dave Hedgehog said:
T-195 said:
You forgot to mention price and depreciation.
Using air con will also reduce the range.
https://uk.motor1.com/news/384790/used-evs-appreci...
and watch diesels dive of a cliff over the next few years
Cars depreciate due to increase in maintanance costs over time, however this isn't the case with EVs instead they are more likely to depreciate due to new technologies being introduced.
The Model S has depreciated in the same manner as an ICE car which I don't think it should. It should retain more value.
The model s got a massive price cut earlier this year which didn't do good for depreciation.
Of course, everything lines up for EVs now. Diesel is being demonized, a lot of people looking for second hand ev but no availability,...
It'll take another 5j for the market to even out. I'll also be curious how the model S's currently on the street hold up after 10+years.
Of course, everything lines up for EVs now. Diesel is being demonized, a lot of people looking for second hand ev but no availability,...
It'll take another 5j for the market to even out. I'll also be curious how the model S's currently on the street hold up after 10+years.
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