Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
RichardM5 said:
Mikehig said:
That's an interesting chart Sambucket; thanks.
Doing some rough guesstimating based, a Tesla averaging 6 km/kWh would always beat diesel, and by a distance in most countries. However an I-Pace at about 4 km/kWh would be about the same as diesel in Germany and worse in Poland.
On the EU average a diesel would have to get down to less than 50 g/km to match a Tesla.
However the chart does use the national average figures. In most countries the CO2 intensity rises as the electricity demand increases. So it would be a more realistic comparison to show the equivalent figures for incremental demand which is supplied by gas and/or coal power: they will be much closer.
Are you factoring in the energy used in extraction, transportation and refinement of diesel/petrol? The energy required just to refine a gallon of petrol is commonly estimated to be in the region of 6kwh.Doing some rough guesstimating based, a Tesla averaging 6 km/kWh would always beat diesel, and by a distance in most countries. However an I-Pace at about 4 km/kWh would be about the same as diesel in Germany and worse in Poland.
On the EU average a diesel would have to get down to less than 50 g/km to match a Tesla.
However the chart does use the national average figures. In most countries the CO2 intensity rises as the electricity demand increases. So it would be a more realistic comparison to show the equivalent figures for incremental demand which is supplied by gas and/or coal power: they will be much closer.
TBH I don't know exactly what the authors of the chart included in their figures.
My main point was that the comparison is not valid because it uses the average CO2 intensity of each grid whereas the comparison should be with the CO2 level for the incremental output needed to meet a new demand.
In most countries, certainly the UK, all of the low- and zero-carbon power is always fully allocated. So, when an additional demand comes on, it will be met by the balancing power sources - usually gas, sometimes coal. Thus the CO2 intensity of that incremental supply is much higher than the national average.
In the UK, that will be the case until we have a consistent surplus of low- and zero-carbon electricity and that point is a long way off. Indeed the imminent retirement of all but one of our nuclear plants will probably increase our reliance on gas and coal.
Mikehig said:
My main point was that the comparison is not valid because it uses the average CO2 intensity of each grid whereas the comparison should be with the CO2 level for the incremental output needed to meet a new demand.
In most countries, certainly the UK, all of the low- and zero-carbon power is always fully allocated. So, when an additional demand comes on, it will be met by the balancing power sources - usually gas, sometimes coal. Thus the CO2 intensity of that incremental supply is much higher than the national average.
Most people will charge BEVs at night when gas usage (orange) is much lower than daily average.In most countries, certainly the UK, all of the low- and zero-carbon power is always fully allocated. So, when an additional demand comes on, it will be met by the balancing power sources - usually gas, sometimes coal. Thus the CO2 intensity of that incremental supply is much higher than the national average.
hyphen said:
November car sales in Norway, limited to BEV
2) Nissan Leaf
3) Audi E-tron
9) BMW i3
17) Hundai Kona
19) Jag I-Pace
30) Opel Ampere-e
Sadly for you that's because Tesla's next delivery does not arrive until this month. Why don't you extend that chart to include the months before? Is that because Tesla are absolutely dominating the number 1 spot? They still can't meet the demand for the 3.2) Nissan Leaf
3) Audi E-tron
9) BMW i3
17) Hundai Kona
19) Jag I-Pace
30) Opel Ampere-e
I'm pretty sure you already know that though, you just chose to pretend it isn't happening for some reason.
Edited by jjwilde on Thursday 12th December 18:11
jjwilde said:
hyphen said:
November car sales in Norway, limited to BEV
2) Nissan Leaf
3) Audi E-tron
9) BMW i3
17) Hundai Kona
19) Jag I-Pace
30) Opel Ampere-e
Sadly for you that's because Tesla's next delivery does not arrive until this month. Why don't you extend that chart to include the months before? Is that because Tesla are absolutely dominating the number 1 spot? They still can't meet the demand for the 3.2) Nissan Leaf
3) Audi E-tron
9) BMW i3
17) Hundai Kona
19) Jag I-Pace
30) Opel Ampere-e
I'm pretty sure you already know that though, you just chose to pretend it isn't happening for some reason.
Edited by jjwilde on Thursday 12th December 18:11
Over on the Evezy thread, one poster has declared he is dumping the 3 SR+ and going back to petrol. In part as he doesn't like Evezy app, but he also says:
"The [tesla] screen freezing about every 2 weeks, no audio from speakers roughly once a month, unable connect to Tesla theatre almost daily, autopilot not working most days, fit and finish in some areas is more akin to Dacia, cold weather range loss, cold weather increased power consumption, range that is very optimistic, windows that shake when you close the door, wipers - dont get me started on the wipers, "
"The [tesla] screen freezing about every 2 weeks, no audio from speakers roughly once a month, unable connect to Tesla theatre almost daily, autopilot not working most days, fit and finish in some areas is more akin to Dacia, cold weather range loss, cold weather increased power consumption, range that is very optimistic, windows that shake when you close the door, wipers - dont get me started on the wipers, "
Always marvel at TSLAQ’s boner for anecdote whilst maintaining the bulls are more blinkered to the big picture.
"according to British magazine What Car?‘s annual reliability survey, Tesla is doing quite well when compared to other manufacturers. In a survey of 31 manufacturers, Tesla ranked 4th, with a score of 96.9%."
Here is an anecdote for you. My car has been perfectly reliable. But i'm just a lemming so presumably my vote doesn't count.
"according to British magazine What Car?‘s annual reliability survey, Tesla is doing quite well when compared to other manufacturers. In a survey of 31 manufacturers, Tesla ranked 4th, with a score of 96.9%."
Here is an anecdote for you. My car has been perfectly reliable. But i'm just a lemming so presumably my vote doesn't count.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 13th December 14:05
hyphen said:
Over on the Evezy thread, one poster has declared he is dumping the 3 SR+ and going back to petrol. In part as he doesn't like Evezy app, but he also says:
"The [tesla] screen freezing about every 2 weeks, no audio from speakers roughly once a month, unable connect to Tesla theatre almost daily, autopilot not working most days, fit and finish in some areas is more akin to Dacia, cold weather range loss, cold weather increased power consumption, range that is very optimistic, windows that shake when you close the door, wipers - dont get me started on the wipers, "
Let's play a game: Name a brand you don't like and find a forum post online of one user's experience that validates your opinion."The [tesla] screen freezing about every 2 weeks, no audio from speakers roughly once a month, unable connect to Tesla theatre almost daily, autopilot not working most days, fit and finish in some areas is more akin to Dacia, cold weather range loss, cold weather increased power consumption, range that is very optimistic, windows that shake when you close the door, wipers - dont get me started on the wipers, "
PS: If anecdotal evidence is what we go by, I can see that Tesla's are the best cars ever and people that have used it want nothing else. I know at least 3 (note that three is almost a number instead of an anecdote) owners that wouldn't want anything else in their garage.
For those following the AutoPilot / Fully Self Driving saga, this research from MIT is interesting:
http://news.mit.edu/2019/object-recognition-datase...
In short, this is a database of pictures of 'things' - objects in the real world. Computer vision software like the stuff used in Teslas are trained on such databases and get about 97% accuracy, and so are 'trusted' in many applications. However, MIT put together an independent data set to test those machine learning models.
The results are startling. Recognition rates drop to 50-55%. That means half the time your 'highly trained' computer vision system cannot recognise the object it's looking at. Ouch.
http://news.mit.edu/2019/object-recognition-datase...
In short, this is a database of pictures of 'things' - objects in the real world. Computer vision software like the stuff used in Teslas are trained on such databases and get about 97% accuracy, and so are 'trusted' in many applications. However, MIT put together an independent data set to test those machine learning models.
The results are startling. Recognition rates drop to 50-55%. That means half the time your 'highly trained' computer vision system cannot recognise the object it's looking at. Ouch.
jamoor said:
coetzeeh said:
Germany now no 1 market for EV sales in Europe. Tesla has work to do here..
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-pas...
Are there sales figures to show who sold what?https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-pas...
https://insideevs.com/news/382155/germany-plugin-c...
293
November sales
https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sale...
280
That was with a 9% increase in total vehicle sales, so tesla in a big market in Europe is dead so far.
This is the issue, Europe is becoming a big EV hot spot for cars taking overfrom the USA, due to politics, and yet from the small markets where Tesla has shined so far they will have increasing competition from the bigger markets where people, if they want to spend money, spend German.
If they make a factory in Germany that does not make them sell more cars and make a profit apart from shipping costs, offset against German wages.
And people in Europe will currently still go german with their thickness of paint and cache down the bingo club.
hyphen said:
Over on the Evezy thread, one poster has declared he is dumping the 3 SR+ and going back to petrol. In part as he doesn't like Evezy app, but he also says:
"The [tesla] screen freezing about every 2 weeks, no audio from speakers roughly once a month, unable connect to Tesla theatre almost daily, autopilot not working most days, fit and finish in some areas is more akin to Dacia, cold weather range loss, cold weather increased power consumption, range that is very optimistic, windows that shake when you close the door, wipers - dont get me started on the wipers, "
For balance I have a model 3 that I’m thoroughly satisfied with and my only gripe is a lack of range (150 seems more likely)."The [tesla] screen freezing about every 2 weeks, no audio from speakers roughly once a month, unable connect to Tesla theatre almost daily, autopilot not working most days, fit and finish in some areas is more akin to Dacia, cold weather range loss, cold weather increased power consumption, range that is very optimistic, windows that shake when you close the door, wipers - dont get me started on the wipers, "
I’ve no idea what autopilot not working most days means unless they’re expecting the car to be FSD or they’re living in downtown Delhi.
Gandahar said:
jamoor said:
coetzeeh said:
Germany now no 1 market for EV sales in Europe. Tesla has work to do here..
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-pas...
Are there sales figures to show who sold what?https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-pas...
https://insideevs.com/news/382155/germany-plugin-c...
293
November sales
https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sale...
280
That was with a 9% increase in total vehicle sales, so tesla in a big market in Europe is dead so far.
This is the issue, Europe is becoming a big EV hot spot for cars taking overfrom the USA, due to politics, and yet from the small markets where Tesla has shined so far they will have increasing competition from the bigger markets where people, if they want to spend money, spend German.
If they make a factory in Germany that does not make them sell more cars and make a profit apart from shipping costs, offset against German wages.
And people in Europe will currently still go german with their thickness of paint and cache down the bingo club.
jjwilde said:
So Tesla have now lost all their tax credits in the USA and have put up the prices of their cars accordingly. This should be the end of them according to some people in this thread. Let's see.
According to which people?Tesla sales have already slumped in the USA and non-USA sales rises were the drivers in the last result. China growth due to new factory should also balance out any demand reduction elsewhere.
ZesPak said:
Let's play a game: Name a brand you don't like and find a forum post online of one user's experience that validates your opinion.
PS: If anecdotal evidence is what we go by, I can see that Tesla's are the best cars ever and people that have used it want nothing else. I know at least 3 (note that three is almost a number instead of an anecdote) owners that wouldn't want anything else in their garage.
In fairnbess there is a similar game :PS: If anecdotal evidence is what we go by, I can see that Tesla's are the best cars ever and people that have used it want nothing else. I know at least 3 (note that three is almost a number instead of an anecdote) owners that wouldn't want anything else in their garage.
Name a brand you do like and find a forum post online of one user's experience that validates your opinion.
On here the two seem to be in equal measure. Typically they're both just people looking for positive affirmation their view is correct when the truth is somewhere between the two. But many people only believe its the people with the opposite view to theirs that suffer from it.
jamoor said:
Name cool businesses then tell me how many of their staff wear suits
Then pop into your local merc dealer and see their attire.
Name cool businesses with non-suits, that make a profit...Then pop into your local merc dealer and see their attire.
Tech companies normal staff don't need to wear a suit, as they are not customer facing, the customer is looking at a smart website or appBuild a scruffy app or website and let me know how successful it is
Tesla themselves spent money on polished media such as those recent renders of the cybertruck with its camping bed and what not.
Edited by hyphen on Saturday 14th December 12:55
hyphen said:
jamoor said:
Name cool businesses then tell me how many of their staff wear suits
Then pop into your local merc dealer and see their attire.
Name cool businesses with non-suits, that make a profit...Then pop into your local merc dealer and see their attire.
Tech companies normal staff don't need to wear a suit, as they are not customer facing, the customer is looking at a smart website or appBuild a scruffy app or website and let me know how successful it is
Tesla themselves spent money on polished media such as those recent renders of the cybertruck with its camping bed and what not.
Edited by hyphen on Saturday 14th December 12:55
Bytedance? Are they cool?
Brew dog maybe?
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