Anyone been for a test drive in a Jaguar i-Pace yet?
Discussion
EddieSteadyGo said:
RacerMike said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
Interesting thoughts.
There is quite a lot of talk about the relatively inefficiency of the car in terms of lower miles per kwh causing a lower than expected range. I've read a software update is due fairly soon from Jaguar which is designed to help address the problem.
Have you heard anything from the dealer about this?
In reality, I don't think this really matters to the average person. What matters is the range which seems to be fine for most considering an EV, but EV Internet forums seem absolutely obsessed with W/100km....There is quite a lot of talk about the relatively inefficiency of the car in terms of lower miles per kwh causing a lower than expected range. I've read a software update is due fairly soon from Jaguar which is designed to help address the problem.
Have you heard anything from the dealer about this?
I think it is super important - there is a big difference between say buying a 12 month old i3 for £25k and spending over £70k+ on this type of car. At this level the car needs to have a very good usable range imho. The fact that Jaguar are saying they think they can improve things with some tweaked software is somewhat encouraging.
The arguments online seem to be that a Tesla Model X can manage around 21kWh/100km and a Model S can dip below 20kWh/100km which makes the I Pace around 20% less efficient than a Model S. The reality is, this won't actually make much of a difference to most people in daily use.
RacerMike said:
But I don't think anyone's actually arguing about the range are they? Most things I've read say that 220-250miles is perfectly achievable (which given that the measured kWh/100 of around 23kWh is about right with 84.7kWh of usable energy).
The arguments online seem to be that a Tesla Model X can manage around 21kWh/100km and a Model S can dip below 20kWh/100km which makes the I Pace around 20% less efficient than a Model S. The reality is, this won't actually make much of a difference to most people in daily use.
You have summed up the issue, and I would argue that it is a significant point. Doesn't matter that its fine, most of the time, for daily use. You could apply that argument to say a 24kwh leaf. The arguments online seem to be that a Tesla Model X can manage around 21kWh/100km and a Model S can dip below 20kWh/100km which makes the I Pace around 20% less efficient than a Model S. The reality is, this won't actually make much of a difference to most people in daily use.
Personally, and despite being very keen on the principle of electric cars, I've decided to hold off for another 18 months before looking to get a large electric car. Hopefully by then we will be seeing the much anticipated faster charging points becoming ubiquitous.
But going back to my original point, I wonder what the Jaguar dealers are saying about this software update and whether it will make a big difference.
EddieSteadyGo said:
You have summed up the issue, and I would argue that it is a significant point. Doesn't matter that its fine, most of the time, for daily use. You could apply that argument to say a 24kwh leaf.
It's been summed up many times though that there is hardly anyone in the UK that regularly does more than 200 miles in a journey, and those that do wouldn't be suited to owning an EV. If the I Pace can easily achieve around 200 miles of range, it fits a great majority of use cases. Whether that's 230 or 253 miles (assuming 20% efficiency difference) is largely irrelevant. My Focus averages at best about 220 miles on a tank. Times that I've had to re-fill before reaching my destination: 3. One journey to the 'Ring and 2 to LeMans. Every other journey I've done in the UK in it has been less than 200 miles by some margin, and I do more miles than the average.Realistically, the I Pace isn't aimed at the bubble of internet pedants (I'm not calling you one by the way as you're merely reporting what people have said on other forums) who all live in some fantasy world where 23 miles of range on a 200 plus EV is make or break. The reality is, the UK's distinctly average charging infrastructure will be of more worry, but those in Europe will do just fine. The fact that the I Pace ISN'T a Tesla, but offers 80% of the useable range of one, will be more than enough to persuade many, along with the improved ride, handling and perceived quality.
RacerMike said:
It's been summed up many times though that there is hardly anyone in the UK that regularly does more than 200 miles in a journey, and those that do wouldn't be suited to owning an EV. If the I Pace can easily achieve around 200 miles of range, it fits a great majority of use cases. Whether that's 230 or 253 miles (assuming 20% efficiency difference) is largely irrelevant. My Focus averages at best about 220 miles on a tank. Times that I've had to re-fill before reaching my destination: 3. One journey to the 'Ring and 2 to LeMans. Every other journey I've done in the UK in it has been less than 200 miles by some margin, and I do more miles than the average.
Realistically, the I Pace isn't aimed at the bubble of internet pedants (I'm not calling you one by the way as you're merely reporting what people have said on other forums) who all live in some fantasy world where 23 miles of range on a 200 plus EV is make or break. The reality is, the UK's distinctly average charging infrastructure will be of more worry, but those in Europe will do just fine. The fact that the I Pace ISN'T a Tesla, but offers 80% of the useable range of one, will be more than enough to persuade many, along with the improved ride, handling and perceived quality.
Fair enough if you think it is an attractive enough proposition to be suitable for most as their main family car. I personally don't agree, but that is just a question of perceptions. Regardless, it is probably the case that more people agree with you than me, as they don't seem to have too many issues selling them.Realistically, the I Pace isn't aimed at the bubble of internet pedants (I'm not calling you one by the way as you're merely reporting what people have said on other forums) who all live in some fantasy world where 23 miles of range on a 200 plus EV is make or break. The reality is, the UK's distinctly average charging infrastructure will be of more worry, but those in Europe will do just fine. The fact that the I Pace ISN'T a Tesla, but offers 80% of the useable range of one, will be more than enough to persuade many, along with the improved ride, handling and perceived quality.
In my mind, putting aside the price which is long way from being affordable for most people, I think the specs are close to being compelling. As you say, a better charging networks with faster chargers and a few of the glitches ironed out should make it workable. That's why I think 18 months is needed before taking another look at it.
I'm still intrigued though as to what difference the software will make
EddieSteadyGo said:
RacerMike said:
It's been summed up many times though that there is hardly anyone in the UK that regularly does more than 200 miles in a journey, and those that do wouldn't be suited to owning an EV. If the I Pace can easily achieve around 200 miles of range, it fits a great majority of use cases. Whether that's 230 or 253 miles (assuming 20% efficiency difference) is largely irrelevant. My Focus averages at best about 220 miles on a tank. Times that I've had to re-fill before reaching my destination: 3. One journey to the 'Ring and 2 to LeMans. Every other journey I've done in the UK in it has been less than 200 miles by some margin, and I do more miles than the average.
Realistically, the I Pace isn't aimed at the bubble of internet pedants (I'm not calling you one by the way as you're merely reporting what people have said on other forums) who all live in some fantasy world where 23 miles of range on a 200 plus EV is make or break. The reality is, the UK's distinctly average charging infrastructure will be of more worry, but those in Europe will do just fine. The fact that the I Pace ISN'T a Tesla, but offers 80% of the useable range of one, will be more than enough to persuade many, along with the improved ride, handling and perceived quality.
Fair enough if you think it is an attractive enough proposition to be suitable for most as their main family car. I personally don't agree, but that is just a question of perceptions. Regardless, it is probably the case that more people agree with you than me, as they don't seem to have too many issues selling them.Realistically, the I Pace isn't aimed at the bubble of internet pedants (I'm not calling you one by the way as you're merely reporting what people have said on other forums) who all live in some fantasy world where 23 miles of range on a 200 plus EV is make or break. The reality is, the UK's distinctly average charging infrastructure will be of more worry, but those in Europe will do just fine. The fact that the I Pace ISN'T a Tesla, but offers 80% of the useable range of one, will be more than enough to persuade many, along with the improved ride, handling and perceived quality.
In my mind, putting aside the price which is long way from being affordable for most people, I think the specs are close to being compelling. As you say, a better charging networks with faster chargers and a few of the glitches ironed out should make it workable. That's why I think 18 months is needed before taking another look at it.
I'm still intrigued though as to what difference the software will make
However, without that charging network I personally wouldn't consider any EV as being a replacement for the family ICE. It might be suitable 90% of the time, but it's the 10% when you're travelling 100 miles each way to visit relatives over Christmas that the trouble starts. Until the public network matures from it's current hopeless form the IPace is an expensive second vehicle, but Jaguar will easily less the handful that they are making. I just hope people that are buying them have done their research properly - but judging by some of the complaints by new Tesla owners who quote the official mpg equivalent and expect it to be real world, I suspect not.
BP have just bought Chargemaster, and talking to a BP staff member over the weekend they see the EV opportunity - it's cakes and coffee where the profit is. Ionity are starting their build out and the Porsche Taycan looks like a great car, so give it 18/24 months and there will be some real choice - and fingers crossed a charging network to support it.
DJP31 said:
A great many EV drivers regularly do 200+ miles a day, but only those with a Tesla. The only reason that's feasible is because of the Supercharger network which allows an EV to be driven with almost, but not entirely, the same freedom as an ICE.
However, without that charging network I personally wouldn't consider any EV as being a replacement for the family ICE. It might be suitable 90% of the time, but it's the 10% when you're travelling 100 miles each way to visit relatives over Christmas that the trouble starts. Until the public network matures from it's current hopeless form the IPace is an expensive second vehicle, but Jaguar will easily less the handful that they are making. I just hope people that are buying them have done their research properly - but judging by some of the complaints by new Tesla owners who quote the official mpg equivalent and expect it to be real world, I suspect not.
BP have just bought Chargemaster, and talking to a BP staff member over the weekend they see the EV opportunity - it's cakes and coffee where the profit is. Ionity are starting their build out and the Porsche Taycan looks like a great car, so give it 18/24 months and there will be some real choice - and fingers crossed a charging network to support it.
That's pretty much my view at this point in time.However, without that charging network I personally wouldn't consider any EV as being a replacement for the family ICE. It might be suitable 90% of the time, but it's the 10% when you're travelling 100 miles each way to visit relatives over Christmas that the trouble starts. Until the public network matures from it's current hopeless form the IPace is an expensive second vehicle, but Jaguar will easily less the handful that they are making. I just hope people that are buying them have done their research properly - but judging by some of the complaints by new Tesla owners who quote the official mpg equivalent and expect it to be real world, I suspect not.
BP have just bought Chargemaster, and talking to a BP staff member over the weekend they see the EV opportunity - it's cakes and coffee where the profit is. Ionity are starting their build out and the Porsche Taycan looks like a great car, so give it 18/24 months and there will be some real choice - and fingers crossed a charging network to support it.
EddieSteadyGo said:
I'm still intrigued though as to what difference the software will make
The only way it will make a difference is if they can re-optimise the cabin heating loads, or free up a bit more useable battery capacity (highly unlikely, given the lack of real world battery degredation data available for this car at the moment)They can't change the cars drag with software, the motor and inverter are already around 93 to 95 % efficient, so no gains their to be had (and that would take an inverter recal, no way is that happening at this stage!)
So, they might turn down the gain on the cabin temp control to allow a bit more excursion to save a little power, but it's window dressing really.
BTW, all that really matters for an EV is how fast you drive on average, my i3 regularly does lower than 12kWhr/100km, if driven carefully, and whilst an iPace won't manage that (bigger car, more drag) i bet you could get into the high teens (say 17 to 18 kWhr/100km) quite easily on our busy UK roads. (where doing 70 is often impossible anyway)
The comment ‘many Tesla owners do more than 200 miles a day’ sounds incredibly anecdotal. What are all these Tesla owners doing that needs them to drive 50,000 miles a year?!
Realistically driving statistics suggest that many cars won’t actually ever do a journey longer than 100 miles in their life. Crazy but true.
If you, instead, mean that there are Many Tesla’s each day that do more than 200 miles (and for their owners it’s perhaps a once a month or once every two months journey) I might believe you. Whilst the public fast charging network isn’t great, it is still possible to do a similar journey witn a bit of planning. Ok, it’s not as carefree, but it’s still far from being a huge undertaking.
And once again, that extra 23 miles from the extra 20% efficiency really isn’t the thing here. I highly doubt many EV owners actually pay it a great deal of attention. I certainly didn’t, and I’ve driven quite a few EVs. Realistically I care more about whether I’ve got plenty of range to do a journey. And if 23 miles is the straw that breaks the camels back, then I suspect other people have considerably more balls than me when it comes to trusting the range calculation!
Realistically driving statistics suggest that many cars won’t actually ever do a journey longer than 100 miles in their life. Crazy but true.
If you, instead, mean that there are Many Tesla’s each day that do more than 200 miles (and for their owners it’s perhaps a once a month or once every two months journey) I might believe you. Whilst the public fast charging network isn’t great, it is still possible to do a similar journey witn a bit of planning. Ok, it’s not as carefree, but it’s still far from being a huge undertaking.
And once again, that extra 23 miles from the extra 20% efficiency really isn’t the thing here. I highly doubt many EV owners actually pay it a great deal of attention. I certainly didn’t, and I’ve driven quite a few EVs. Realistically I care more about whether I’ve got plenty of range to do a journey. And if 23 miles is the straw that breaks the camels back, then I suspect other people have considerably more balls than me when it comes to trusting the range calculation!
RacerMike said:
The comment ‘many Tesla owners do more than 200 miles a day’ sounds incredibly anecdotal. What are all these Tesla owners doing that needs them to drive 50,000 miles a year?!
Realistically driving statistics suggest that many cars won’t actually ever do a journey longer than 100 miles in their life. Crazy but true.
If you, instead, mean that there are Many Tesla’s each day that do more than 200 miles (and for their owners it’s perhaps a once a month or once every two months journey) I might believe you. Whilst the public fast charging network isn’t great, it is still possible to do a similar journey witn a bit of planning. Ok, it’s not as carefree, but it’s still far from being a huge undertaking.
And once again, that extra 23 miles from the extra 20% efficiency really isn’t the thing here. I highly doubt many EV owners actually pay it a great deal of attention. I certainly didn’t, and I’ve driven quite a few EVs. Realistically I care more about whether I’ve got plenty of range to do a journey. And if 23 miles is the straw that breaks the camels back, then I suspect other people have considerably more balls than me when it comes to trusting the range calculation!
There are a great many Tesla drivers driving more than 200 miles a day on a very regular basis. My source is the closed FB Group for owners. There are also a great many owners who drive 200 miles a day on a weekly or monthly basis. I’m in the latter group.Realistically driving statistics suggest that many cars won’t actually ever do a journey longer than 100 miles in their life. Crazy but true.
If you, instead, mean that there are Many Tesla’s each day that do more than 200 miles (and for their owners it’s perhaps a once a month or once every two months journey) I might believe you. Whilst the public fast charging network isn’t great, it is still possible to do a similar journey witn a bit of planning. Ok, it’s not as carefree, but it’s still far from being a huge undertaking.
And once again, that extra 23 miles from the extra 20% efficiency really isn’t the thing here. I highly doubt many EV owners actually pay it a great deal of attention. I certainly didn’t, and I’ve driven quite a few EVs. Realistically I care more about whether I’ve got plenty of range to do a journey. And if 23 miles is the straw that breaks the camels back, then I suspect other people have considerably more balls than me when it comes to trusting the range calculation!
The average car does 20 something miles a day I think, and I’m sure you are right that many don’t drive more than 100 miles in a day ever. Both very strong arguments for more widespread EV adoption and less range anxiety.
The public network supporting long distance travelling is nigh on hopeless. An Ecotricity charger or two, max delivery 50kW if you are lucky. IPace owners who think they can blast up and down the motorway and recharge quickly are going to be very unhappy bunnies. It will change as I’ve already said, but not for a fair while.
I’ve missed the points about 20% extra efficiency and 23 miles, that would be about 10% of my battery and that would be fine for me, assuming charging is available at the destination - i.e. home. The Tesla trip estimator is extremely accurate in my experience, and adjusts as the journey progresses. If it looks like I’m going to arrive with more than I need I can increase my rate of progress, conversely if it’s getting tighter I slow down.
Edited by DJP31 on Thursday 30th August 20:34
Max_Torque said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
I'm still intrigued though as to what difference the software will make
The only way it will make a difference is if they can re-optimise the cabin heating loads, or free up a bit more useable battery capacity (highly unlikely, given the lack of real world battery degredation data available for this car at the moment)amstrange1 said:
Max_Torque said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
I'm still intrigued though as to what difference the software will make
The only way it will make a difference is if they can re-optimise the cabin heating loads, or free up a bit more useable battery capacity (highly unlikely, given the lack of real world battery degredation data available for this car at the moment)As all the current EV produces have found, to go further you need a bigger battery! (or allow the customer to use more of the one he has, which is what later models of cars like the Lead and I3 do, but that's because the manufacturer now has real world useage and degradation data to back up that change)
I think everyone is missing the point of range here. It’s all about the charging (re-fuelling) time. I have an i3 and ran it 150 miles regularly on a day, often the charging locations were not working for one reason or another and I had to have 7 or 8 different cards to use them. I remember when all the ecotricity chargers were all free vend so for the most part I didn’t pay for the cost to travel luckily having the REX version kept me sane on many occasions and I could go to the next one. However the most frustrating part was having to wait so long to get charged up.
Now I have the Tesla model S and the Mrs has the i3 to run around in can charge up at home very easily she never has to worry about range as she only drives locally along with the bonus of not having to fill up at a petrol station it’s come into it’s own and she now reluctantly thinks it’s brilliant. REX is now redundant.
The charging network for Tesla just puts it far and away above anything I’ve experienced in the i3 and having to use a slow 43kw chargemaster charger is only done when we go shopping for a couple of hours and they are not iced or broken, which is quite often.
I did look at the Jag iPace and have to say it looks very tasty but until charging is sorted in a similar way to Tesla Supercharging there is no way any of the soon to be long range EV cars whether they do 200 or 300 miles from Merc/Audi et all will be on my drive.
Did I say supercharging ......that’s when everything changes not these 7kw posts but proper 100+ kw chargers.
Only my opinion but hey, what do I know!!
Now I have the Tesla model S and the Mrs has the i3 to run around in can charge up at home very easily she never has to worry about range as she only drives locally along with the bonus of not having to fill up at a petrol station it’s come into it’s own and she now reluctantly thinks it’s brilliant. REX is now redundant.
The charging network for Tesla just puts it far and away above anything I’ve experienced in the i3 and having to use a slow 43kw chargemaster charger is only done when we go shopping for a couple of hours and they are not iced or broken, which is quite often.
I did look at the Jag iPace and have to say it looks very tasty but until charging is sorted in a similar way to Tesla Supercharging there is no way any of the soon to be long range EV cars whether they do 200 or 300 miles from Merc/Audi et all will be on my drive.
Did I say supercharging ......that’s when everything changes not these 7kw posts but proper 100+ kw chargers.
Only my opinion but hey, what do I know!!
Totally agree, charging infrastructure is woeful in the UK at the moment.
Why charging stations can't just use contactless for payment is beyond me. All the different types of app, card or fob - just bonkers. At the moment you need to leave a large buffer in case a charger doesn't work - say 30 miles off the range. Add to this most EV's going into some sort of limp/turtle mode at 15 miles or less - that's 45 miles off your supposed 200 mile range before you start.
Early adopters will always buy the new tech but it's just not ready yet. Tesla apart with their own network of chargers but even this is woeful north of the border.
Talk to anyone outside the current circle of EV enthusiasts and they'll all say the same - range and charging waiting time are big blockers to buying an EV.
I still think we're at least 5 years away from being able to use non-Tesla EV's on longer trips without some sort of faff and inconvenience.
Why charging stations can't just use contactless for payment is beyond me. All the different types of app, card or fob - just bonkers. At the moment you need to leave a large buffer in case a charger doesn't work - say 30 miles off the range. Add to this most EV's going into some sort of limp/turtle mode at 15 miles or less - that's 45 miles off your supposed 200 mile range before you start.
Early adopters will always buy the new tech but it's just not ready yet. Tesla apart with their own network of chargers but even this is woeful north of the border.
Talk to anyone outside the current circle of EV enthusiasts and they'll all say the same - range and charging waiting time are big blockers to buying an EV.
I still think we're at least 5 years away from being able to use non-Tesla EV's on longer trips without some sort of faff and inconvenience.
Max_Torque said:
indeed, but whilst the "percentage" efficiency might be poor (down to around 85% perhaps) the actual losses are tiny, because the load is tiny, so it makes not that much difference!
10% of 25kW = 2.5kW of losses, so across a couple of hour drive (for all these people doing 100+ miles a day in their EVs, I know, I know...) that's 5kWh, or about 6% more usable energy. I think it's one of the reasons that Tesla have kept an ASM in the front of the 4wd Model 3, with the rear PSM giving them the continuous and repeatable performance their other products lack.EddieSteadyGo said:
Personally, and despite being very keen on the principle of electric cars, I've decided to hold off for another 18 months before looking to get a large electric car. Hopefully by then we will be seeing the much anticipated faster charging points becoming ubiquitous.
I've come to pretty much the same conclusion. The charging infrastructure isn't there yet unless you're buying a Tesla, and the competition will be a lot more fierce two years from now. I'm expecting to be able to get a good, 300 mile range EV at a competitive price, and be able to charge it in many more locations.Smiljan said:
Tesla apart with their own network of chargers but even this is woeful north of the border.
That's true, although three more are planned (aka "aspirational" at Berwick, Stirling and Fort William. I've not done a trip up there yet (that's planned for June next year) but my understanding is that the "rapid" public charging network is much better than down here - and free. One card is all you need, no apps or monthly subscriptions etc etc.EddieSteadyGo said:
Fair enough if you think it is an attractive enough proposition to be suitable for most as their main family car. I personally don't agree, but that is just a question of perceptions. Regardless, it is probably the case that more people agree with you than me, as they don't seem to have too many issues selling them.
In my mind, putting aside the price which is long way from being affordable for most people, I think the specs are close to being compelling. As you say, a better charging networks with faster chargers and a few of the glitches ironed out should make it workable. That's why I think 18 months is needed before taking another look at it.
I'm still intrigued though as to what difference the software will make
Which is why I think my i3 rex is such a good a solution. Yes I drag around a scooter engine for the 95% of journeys it isn't needed, but I am glad to have it for the other 5%.In my mind, putting aside the price which is long way from being affordable for most people, I think the specs are close to being compelling. As you say, a better charging networks with faster chargers and a few of the glitches ironed out should make it workable. That's why I think 18 months is needed before taking another look at it.
I'm still intrigued though as to what difference the software will make
I'm suprised others aren't taking this route when we are clearly some way off a robust baytery solution/charging network that will cater for long journeys.
covmutley said:
Which is why I think my i3 rex is such a good a solution. Yes I drag around a scooter engine for the 95% of journeys it isn't needed, but I am glad to have it for the other 5%.
I'm suprised others aren't taking this route when we are clearly some way off a robust baytery solution/charging network that will cater for long journeys.
It’s what got me into an EV, now I’ll never go back. All those worries about range etc. before taking the plunge have evaporated, now I’m just enjoying smugly cruising around in a silent EV while all those noisy philistines in their mechanical horse & carts clog up the airways.I'm suprised others aren't taking this route when we are clearly some way off a robust baytery solution/charging network that will cater for long journeys.
Another consequence is that I’m now a much calmer driver than before. Used to be in the Clarkson school of “driving is a waste of time that must be concluded as soon as possible”; I’m now cruising at speed limits and enjoying the journey.
Nothing to do with range, there’s plenty for me to blast around as quickly as I used to, it’s purely that driving an EV is just so relaxing.
Mr. White said:
covmutley said:
Which is why I think my i3 rex is such a good a solution. Yes I drag around a scooter engine for the 95% of journeys it isn't needed, but I am glad to have it for the other 5%.
I'm suprised others aren't taking this route when we are clearly some way off a robust baytery solution/charging network that will cater for long journeys.
It’s what got me into an EV, now I’ll never go back. All those worries about range etc. before taking the plunge have evaporated, now I’m just enjoying smugly cruising around in a silent EV while all those noisy philistines in their mechanical horse & carts clog up the airways.I'm suprised others aren't taking this route when we are clearly some way off a robust baytery solution/charging network that will cater for long journeys.
Another consequence is that I’m now a much calmer driver than before. Used to be in the Clarkson school of “driving is a waste of time that must be concluded as soon as possible”; I’m now cruising at speed limits and enjoying the journey.
Nothing to do with range, there’s plenty for me to blast around as quickly as I used to, it’s purely that driving an EV is just so relaxing.
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