no more unlimited supercharging as from 16/09 - Tesla
Discussion
Flumpo said:
The gist was the current elec infrastructure can’t be upgraded to cope with the expected demand from charging cars at home.
Really? Most homes have a 60Amp fuse, we have 80amp and access to 3 phase supply wired direct to our meter.The most powerful home EV charger will run st 32amp, but actually 16amps is enough.
Am currenly in a study where they are studying how smart EV chargers can automatically change charge rate according to grid demand.
I plug in our EV every night when I get home, as you can see the actual amount of electricty am using to charge the car averages out to less than 1KW/hr most days, thats the same power drain as 5 200W light bulbs been on.
Flumpo said:
The document was very clear the government do not see cars being charged at home.
I persume this document was written by people who probably have never sat in an EV let alone own one??The biggest advantage of EVs over ICE cars is home charging, why would you want to go out of your way to charge your call at a fuel station when you can just do it at home?
Yes am sure parts of the grid will need to be upgraded, but so did the sewer system when flushing toilets appeared, as you mentioned already optic fibre broadband is now available in most places, and cable TV etc. EV sales in Norway is on the verge of overtaking combustion car sales, they have EV chargers everwhere, yet I've not heard of any blackout stories thete due to EV charging??
The arguments against EVs are fast disappearing. We already have a second charge point installed ready for our 2nd EV. I really don't see why people are still dithering about getting an EV, if you can afford the asking price (and plenty of people on this forum can), its a no brainer.
Edited by gangzoom on Thursday 27th September 06:41
gangzoom said:
I plug in our EV every night when I get home, as you can see the actual amount of electricty am using to charge the car averages out to less than 1KW/hr most days, thats the same power drain as 5 200W light bulbs been on.
]
The point is right, another way of expressing it is the average car goes about 12k miles a year, 1k a month, 30 miles a day, and an EV can do between 3 and 4 miles per kWh, so they need, on average 10-12kwh per day.]
Rather than quote 200w lightbulbs which few people have, look at the switch to LED bulbs. I had 16 50w downlighters in my kitchen alone which I switched to 5w LED, that’s 0.75kw freed up capacity compared to my consumption 2 years ago - and in general, my electricity consumption is no different now with a Tesla than it as before because of the savings.
Heres Johnny said:
The point is right, another way of expressing it is the average car goes about 12k miles a year, 1k a month, 30 miles a day, and an EV can do between 3 and 4 miles per kWh, so they need, on average 10-12kwh per day.
Rather than quote 200w lightbulbs which few people have, look at the switch to LED bulbs. I had 16 50w downlighters in my kitchen alone which I switched to 5w LED, that’s 0.75kw freed up capacity compared to my consumption 2 years ago - and in general, my electricity consumption is no different now with a Tesla than it as before because of the savings.
Yet the auto industry appears to be obsessed with recreating the combustion car refuelling experience. Am not sure anyone actually wants to go and visit a petrol station for fun??Rather than quote 200w lightbulbs which few people have, look at the switch to LED bulbs. I had 16 50w downlighters in my kitchen alone which I switched to 5w LED, that’s 0.75kw freed up capacity compared to my consumption 2 years ago - and in general, my electricity consumption is no different now with a Tesla than it as before because of the savings.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/audi-e...
I cannot even imagine the amount of power a bank x6 350KW chargers will need once you factor charging losses/cooling/transmission losses etc......We really will need another 100 nuclear powerstations if the government thinks rapid chargers are the way forwards for EV refueling. If people really WANT rapidchargers than someone has to pay for it, which comes down to the point of SuperChargers. Free supercharging was just madness, on all fronts and I'm glad its gone and hopefully will not come back - If you need rapid charging, pay for it as you would anything else.
Edited by gangzoom on Thursday 27th September 08:27
gangzoom said:
I cannot even imagine the amount of power a bank x6 350KW chargers will need once you factor charging losses/cooling/transmission losses etc......We really will need another 100 nuclear powerstations if the government thinks rapid chargers are the way forwards for EV refueling. If people really WANT rapidchargers than someone has to pay for it, which comes down to the point of SuperChargers. Free supercharging was just madness, on all fronts and I'm glad its gone and hopefully will not come back - If you need rapid charging, pay for it as you would anything else.
I'm not sure that makes much sense unless you're making the point that rapids potentially need a much higher peak power. 1 rapid is currently like 7-8 people charging at home (even on a supercharger that holds roughly true as the super charger pair is limited to around 140kw) but of course you use them much short periods,, the amount of energy you need in a day doesn't change much in terms of how you put it into the car. On the move, away from home, it is beneficial to have a high peak charge rate individually, but that doesn't extrapolate to more power overall.
gangzoom said:
Yet the auto industry appears to be obsessed with recreating the combustion car refuelling experience. Am not sure anyone actually wants to go and visit a petrol station for fun??
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/audi-e...
I cannot even imagine the amount of power a bank x6 350KW chargers will need once you factor charging losses/cooling/transmission losses etc......We really will need another 100 nuclear powerstations if the government thinks rapid chargers are the way forwards for EV refueling. If people really WANT rapidchargers than someone has to pay for it, which comes down to the point of SuperChargers. Free supercharging was just madness, on all fronts and I'm glad its gone and hopefully will not come back - If you need rapid charging, pay for it as you would anything else.
Ironically the place where EVs are needed the most i.e. in polluted cities is where they are least likely to be able to be charged from the home hence the requirement to go charge them away from the home. The free charging to date is quite obviously an attempt to move a market into a very different way of powering their vehicle, surely no one seriously thought that companies would continue to give away free energy (given it costs those companies money to create it) forever? It's like anything looking to build customers, free trial at the gym then £50 a month after etc. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/audi-e...
I cannot even imagine the amount of power a bank x6 350KW chargers will need once you factor charging losses/cooling/transmission losses etc......We really will need another 100 nuclear powerstations if the government thinks rapid chargers are the way forwards for EV refueling. If people really WANT rapidchargers than someone has to pay for it, which comes down to the point of SuperChargers. Free supercharging was just madness, on all fronts and I'm glad its gone and hopefully will not come back - If you need rapid charging, pay for it as you would anything else.
Edited by gangzoom on Thursday 27th September 08:27
Whats really needed is widescale infrastructure, within London there are houses people are paying £1m+ for which do not have a driveway or even the ability to park outside the house, this seriously needs addressing as these are core customers for expensive EVs. Be it charging poles along roads or whatever. But users are going to have to pay, like anyone would for a service!
Edited by coldel on Thursday 27th September 08:53
Heres Johnny said:
On the move, away from home, it is beneficial to have a high peak charge rate individually, but that doesn't extrapolate to more power overall.
It may not be more power overall but it does need ALOT more peak power - which is alot harder to deliver, especially when you take into account the amount of heat a 350KW charger will generate compared to 20+ 7KW chargers spread across a whole housing estate. Its no where near the level of hydrogen fuel delivery madness but 350KW x 6 bays active at the same time isn't far off. They will be need for rapid travel, but people should be prepared to pay for the cost of all the extra hardware. 50p per kWh doesn't seem like an unfair price to pay in that situation, but Tesla has done every one a disfavour by offering it up for 'free' and setting a mindset, hence the nature of this post.
Edited by gangzoom on Thursday 27th September 08:58
gangzoom said:
Flumpo said:
The gist was the current elec infrastructure can’t be upgraded to cope with the expected demand from charging cars at home.
Really? Most homes have a 60Amp fuse, we have 80amp and access to 3 phase supply wired direct to our meter.The most powerful home EV charger will run st 32amp, but actually 16amps is enough.
Am currenly in a study where they are studying how smart EV chargers can automatically change charge rate according to grid demand.
I plug in our EV every night when I get home, as you can see the actual amount of electricty am using to charge the car averages out to less than 1KW/hr most days, thats the same power drain as 5 200W light bulbs been on.
Flumpo said:
The document was very clear the government do not see cars being charged at home.
I persume this document was written by people who probably have never sat in an EV let alone own one??The biggest advantage of EVs over ICE cars is home charging, why would you want to go out of your way to charge your call at a fuel station when you can just do it at home?
Yes am sure parts of the grid will need to be upgraded, but so did the sewer system when flushing toilets appeared, as you mentioned already optic fibre broadband is now available in most places, and cable TV etc. EV sales in Norway is on the verge of overtaking combustion car sales, they have EV chargers everwhere, yet I've not heard of any blackout stories thete due to EV charging??
The arguments against EVs are fast disappearing. We already have a second charge point installed ready for our 2nd EV. I really don't see why people are still dithering about getting an EV, if you can afford the asking price (and plenty of people on this forum can), its a no brainer.
Edited by gangzoom on Thursday 27th September 06:41
All I know is that’s what the government/ industry are planning and it was very clear home charging was not what they want.
I should have maybe mentioned this is to deal with what they described as the next generation of elec cars.
But the government will do whatever makes taxation easier, and that seems to be no home charging.
No idea if any of this is correct....
350KW chargers - say you need 400KW energy once all the lossess are accounted for.
Lets say you need a bank of 8 each sides of a motorway service station to serve a decent number of cars, that's 6400KW peak demand.
The A1 is longest road in the UK, 410 miles long.
Say you want EV rapid charger every 50 miles, so thats 8 sites, 16 bays each site, than the MAX peak demand would be 51,200KW.....
Which actually isn't that much power, as if I understand correctly thats about the same as x5 TGV trains at full load, which really isn't much power if you talking about keeping the entire A1 supplied with high power chargers!!!
So even in the worst case situation this whole EV thing just makes sense, despite all the doom predictors, really is a no-brainer, just why are goverments/compaines still dragging their feet???!!
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_POS
350KW chargers - say you need 400KW energy once all the lossess are accounted for.
Lets say you need a bank of 8 each sides of a motorway service station to serve a decent number of cars, that's 6400KW peak demand.
The A1 is longest road in the UK, 410 miles long.
Say you want EV rapid charger every 50 miles, so thats 8 sites, 16 bays each site, than the MAX peak demand would be 51,200KW.....
Which actually isn't that much power, as if I understand correctly thats about the same as x5 TGV trains at full load, which really isn't much power if you talking about keeping the entire A1 supplied with high power chargers!!!
So even in the worst case situation this whole EV thing just makes sense, despite all the doom predictors, really is a no-brainer, just why are goverments/compaines still dragging their feet???!!
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_POS
gangzoom said:
So even in the worst case situation this whole EV thing just makes sense, despite all the doom predictors, really is a no-brainer, just why are goverments/compaines still dragging their feet???!!
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_POS
Probably because the government is potless with billions of pounds of debt and can't even keep the police on the street or provide ambulances that aren't built in the 80s - can you imagine the public backlash if it suddenly announced a £500m investment in motorway chargers at a time when only the wealthy can afford EVs. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_POS
Private investment is an obvious option but until there is a business case for it i.e. lots of potential customers and ability to charge customers what they need them to pay to make profit they will step tentatively.
politeperson said:
Hello the Selfish Gene.
You pay it every year as a company employee, even if you own the company. When I bought it it was 0%, then it was 5% now its 13%.
So a 40% taxpayer pays 40% of 5% of 52,000 which is £1,040 pa.
A lovely, similarly priced BMW 530 D xdrive currently has a BIK tax rate of 33%
So a 40% taxpayer pays 40% of 33% of £52,000 which is £6,800 pa.
When you get in the the realms of 2.7 ton Discoveries and Range Rovers, life quickly becomes horrifically expensive tax wise.
thank you for taking the time to explain how it works. I've never thought about BIK as I buy cars personally, but could be tempted to buy one through my company!You pay it every year as a company employee, even if you own the company. When I bought it it was 0%, then it was 5% now its 13%.
So a 40% taxpayer pays 40% of 5% of 52,000 which is £1,040 pa.
A lovely, similarly priced BMW 530 D xdrive currently has a BIK tax rate of 33%
So a 40% taxpayer pays 40% of 33% of £52,000 which is £6,800 pa.
When you get in the the realms of 2.7 ton Discoveries and Range Rovers, life quickly becomes horrifically expensive tax wise.
Edited by politeperson on Monday 24th September 18:59
The biggest problem is that many, many people are simply unable to charge at home because cars are parked it the street, so an alternative is required. There are plenty of stories on this site about people having to park several streets away from their homes.
Does anyone know roughly how many cars aren't parked on driveways?
The solutions could be using street lamp-based charger, or installing chargers in shared car parks for flats, but each of these would require some sort of sharing to be done between owners of cars and this would work for civilised people but this is the UK!
It seems sensible enough to put more chargers in petrol stations/car parks to allow people who don't have home charging to use EVs.
Does anyone know roughly how many cars aren't parked on driveways?
The solutions could be using street lamp-based charger, or installing chargers in shared car parks for flats, but each of these would require some sort of sharing to be done between owners of cars and this would work for civilised people but this is the UK!
It seems sensible enough to put more chargers in petrol stations/car parks to allow people who don't have home charging to use EVs.
LG9k said:
The biggest problem is that many, many people are simply unable to charge at home because cars are parked it the street, so an alternative is required. There are plenty of stories on this site about people having to park several streets away from their homes.
Does anyone know roughly how many cars aren't parked on driveways?
The solutions could be using street lamp-based charger, or installing chargers in shared car parks for flats, but each of these would require some sort of sharing to be done between owners of cars and this would work for civilised people but this is the UK!
It seems sensible enough to put more chargers in petrol stations/car parks to allow people who don't have home charging to use EVs.
Street Lamp charging is already a year into trials in london. You buy a special lead which identifies who you are for billing purposes. Does anyone know roughly how many cars aren't parked on driveways?
The solutions could be using street lamp-based charger, or installing chargers in shared car parks for flats, but each of these would require some sort of sharing to be done between owners of cars and this would work for civilised people but this is the UK!
It seems sensible enough to put more chargers in petrol stations/car parks to allow people who don't have home charging to use EVs.
These are all just transitional problems. If only Pistonheads was around when mains gas came to the UK and all those coal men posting to say it would never take off.
Heres Johnny said:
LG9k said:
The biggest problem is that many, many people are simply unable to charge at home because cars are parked it the street, so an alternative is required. There are plenty of stories on this site about people having to park several streets away from their homes.
Does anyone know roughly how many cars aren't parked on driveways?
The solutions could be using street lamp-based charger, or installing chargers in shared car parks for flats, but each of these would require some sort of sharing to be done between owners of cars and this would work for civilised people but this is the UK!
It seems sensible enough to put more chargers in petrol stations/car parks to allow people who don't have home charging to use EVs.
Street Lamp charging is already a year into trials in london. You buy a special lead which identifies who you are for billing purposes. Does anyone know roughly how many cars aren't parked on driveways?
The solutions could be using street lamp-based charger, or installing chargers in shared car parks for flats, but each of these would require some sort of sharing to be done between owners of cars and this would work for civilised people but this is the UK!
It seems sensible enough to put more chargers in petrol stations/car parks to allow people who don't have home charging to use EVs.
These are all just transitional problems. If only Pistonheads was around when mains gas came to the UK and all those coal men posting to say it would never take off.
The infrastructure and taxation system will just take a while to take off.
Flumpo said:
I haven’t read through all of these posts, but there can’t really be anyone who doesn’t think electric cars are the future?!
The infrastructure and taxation system will just take a while to take off.
I haven't really seen anyone denying they're the unstoppable future (sadly)The infrastructure and taxation system will just take a while to take off.
delaying them being compulsory as long as possible is the best we can hope for (a bit like death)
Heres Johnny said:
Street Lamp charging is already a year into trials in london. You buy a special lead which identifies who you are for billing purposes.
These are all just transitional problems. If only Pistonheads was around when mains gas came to the UK and all those coal men posting to say it would never take off.
Is that the Ovo trial that ended in May? The lamp posts are only serving pay and display parking bays in that trial - I would imagine there is some sort of revenue share approach with the council? They also only propose converting lamp posts which is a good start but isn't a viable scale option (given there are multiple more cars on a road than lamp posts situated 20-30 metres apart).These are all just transitional problems. If only Pistonheads was around when mains gas came to the UK and all those coal men posting to say it would never take off.
In terms of houses with drives in London, again referring maybe to Richmond where I live the housing is quite diverse and you wouldnt be surprised to see a 1 bed flat for sale at £300-400k so people in these places are well placed financially to buy an EV but have no viable charging point. I would say looking at say two square KMs its probably around 1 in 30 properties have a drive, finger in the air, possibly less.
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