All electric Audi

[caseys]

IbrahimLafayette said:

Most of the electric cars by the German competition are based on already existing platforms, this means that they can't offer any of the space advantages that you would normally expect from an EV. However this allows them to manufacture them on existing production lines, with an extra step for the electric motors. They won't encounter any of the production problems that Tesla currently has. Given that there is no shortage on batteries, if necessary they can put out large quantities.
As far as I know, they chose this slow approach because it is very cost effective. I'm not sure why the analyst says otherwise. It's just to put their solutions on the map, I doubt initial demand will be very high.
They are already developing a dedicated platform for fully electric vehicles, but it will be another 3 or 4 years until release. I don't think they have to hurry either, ICE still sells very well and we will probably see a transition with better hybrid systems, before fully electric is largely adopted. Also, I think current tech and infrastructure needs to advance significantly.

I agree. It's interesting to see them re-use existing platforms. I thought a while ago some would have emergency planned a roadmap on a new platform specifically for EV. Maybe they have, but the gestation period for that platform seems longer than many have expected. My main point was that the competition don't have the raw capacity to produce the kWh capacity that Tesla do. I know VAG and the like are now buying up big mining futures contracts for certain elements, and undoubtedly big places like China are too. I'm wondering though also apart from LG Chem / Panasonic are doing battery research and can forecast what materials (rare earths / metals) are required for future battery tech. I'd love to know the budget of partnerships between car companies and battery companies for R&D, or even if those synergies exist. I hope that car manufacturers aren't just treating batteries as a part they get given/stamp out and don't expect it to radically change.

The company I work for have been working on Lithium air batteries in the labs, which I've seen a bit of out in California - it's quite fascinating and elegant. The weight saved by energy capacity is very impressive but the density of the packaging has a long long way to go yet So packaging wise for vehicles it's completely impractical. Where weight trumps packaging it's getting close to commercially viable.

IbrahimLafayette said:

VW (Audi), Mercedes, BMW, Ford and Shell have an agreement with Ionity, which is potentially more powerful at 350 kWh (can charge the e-tron at 150 kWh) vs. 135 kWh from the Tesla SC.
Furthermore Audi has partnered with other charger networks, they claim to have over 70.000 charging points in Europe alone by the start of 2019.

Intresting, though right now there are a whole six chargers with Ionity - 2 in France, 1 in Germany, 2 in Switzerland, 1 in Austria. They are admittedly looking to triple their capacity (to a colossal 18) in Europe, with none in the UK. It's a plan, but quite frankly it's not (yet... as I said), what I would consider a usable network.

At Goodwood FoS this year there was a stand, I can't remember if it was BP or Shell, who were touting their upcoming charging network, which has some stations in Central London. As soon as they told me the current 'discount' prices I laughed, it was something north of 30p/kWh, when the discount ends it rose to nearly 50p/kWh. Which makes the cost with them farcical.

I'd love to see someone build a good charging network, I support Polar/Chargemaster, which I believe has now been acquired by BP - who I hope don't ruin it but work out it's their future revenue stream for commercial/public energy supplying.

Ionity looks nice but I've got more chargers in my town (we're not even a city) publicaly available than they have, or even have planned, across the whole of Europe.

IbrahimLafayette said:

Audi and Mercedes have their own factories, BMW probably as well but I'm not looking that up, to assemble the batteries. The only problem is that the battery cells are shipped from china. If there is a shortage, they will have production issues.

Right so still a weak point in the supply chain of parts. Looks like it's assembly. I think people will win when they have their own, or vastly contracted ability of kWh build capacity.

I've been a victim myself of waiting for a PHEV to turn up due to car company having supply issues from 3rd party. Either partner and bring it closer to being 'in-house' or suffer that delay in time-to-market / time-to-deliver

IbrahimLafayette said:

Audi has OTA updates, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing. Tesla have been deactivating and activating certain features from time to time and the updates are mandatory. The current update disables Autopilot functionality on some cars, in the past there was lane assist that has been disabled for quite a while, the safety feature in the Model X doors that stop them when resistance is noticed was disabled etc.

Agree from the viewpoint that people don't like the walled garden/big brother esq approach. OTA updates also open up the can of worms in the long term regarding security and safety updates - when will certain updates be deemed mandatory, what if a car injures/kills/causes an accident without a safety patch applied etc? It's all fascinating.

Edited by caseys on Wednesday 19th September 09:10

[caseys]

Oh and an interesting write-up on the e-tron over at Ars

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/09/the-coolest-t...

[IbrahimLafayette]

caseys said:

IbrahimLafayette said:

Most of the electric cars by the German competition are based on already existing platforms, this means that they can't offer any of the space advantages that you would normally expect from an EV. However this allows them to manufacture them on existing production lines, with an extra step for the electric motors. They won't encounter any of the production problems that Tesla currently has. Given that there is no shortage on batteries, if necessary they can put out large quantities.
As far as I know, they chose this slow approach because it is very cost effective. I'm not sure why the analyst says otherwise. It's just to put their solutions on the map, I doubt initial demand will be very high.
They are already developing a dedicated platform for fully electric vehicles, but it will be another 3 or 4 years until release. I don't think they have to hurry either, ICE still sells very well and we will probably see a transition with better hybrid systems, before fully electric is largely adopted. Also, I think current tech and infrastructure needs to advance significantly.

[...]My main point was that the competition don't have the raw capacity to produce the kWh capacity that Tesla do. I know VAG and the like are now buying up big mining futures contracts for certain elements, and undoubtedly big places like China are too. I'm wondering though also apart from LG Chem / Panasonic are doing battery research and can forecast what materials (rare earths / metals) are required for future battery tech. I'd love to know the budget of partnerships between car companies and battery companies for R&D, or even if those synergies exist. I hope that car manufacturers aren't just treating batteries as a part they get given/stamp out and don't expect it to radically change.

The company I work for have been working on Lithium air batteries in the labs, which I've seen a bit of out in California - it's quite fascinating and elegant. The weight saved by energy capacity is very impressive but the density of the packaging has a long long way to go yet So packaging wise for vehicles it's completely impractical. Where weight trumps packaging it's getting close to commercially viable.

As far as I know, most of the battery research at the moment is done by universities or start ups, that are partly funded by established automobile manufactures. I'm sure in the future that will change, after all engines are also developed in-house and can present a significant advantage in the market. BMW has already laid the foundation with its research center dedicated to battery cell technology. Furthermore they commissioned CATL to build a factory in Thuringia. Daimler is building its second battery production center under their accumotive subsidiary.
The German manufactures have been hesitant to invest in cell production and as a consequence will have to buy from other manufactures for quite a while.
Large investment won't be made until it is clear what will be the leading storage materials in the long-term.

caseys said:

IbrahimLafayette said:

VW (Audi), Mercedes, BMW, Ford and Shell have an agreement with Ionity, which is potentially more powerful at 350 kWh (can charge the e-tron at 150 kWh) vs. 135 kWh from the Tesla SC.
Furthermore Audi has partnered with other charger networks, they claim to have over 70.000 charging points in Europe alone by the start of 2019.

Intresting, though right now there are a whole six chargers with Ionity - 2 in France, 1 in Germany, 2 in Switzerland, 1 in Austria. They are admittedly looking to triple their capacity (to a colossal 18) in Europe, with none in the UK. It's a plan, but quite frankly it's not (yet... as I said), what I would consider a usable network.

At Goodwood FoS this year there was a stand, I can't remember if it was BP or Shell, who were touting their upcoming charging network, which has some stations in Central London. As soon as they told me the current 'discount' prices I laughed, it was something north of 30p/kWh, when the discount ends it rose to nearly 50p/kWh. Which makes the cost with them farcical.

I'd love to see someone build a good charging network, I support Polar/Chargemaster, which I believe has now been acquired by BP - who I hope don't ruin it but work out it's their future revenue stream for commercial/public energy supplying.

Ionity looks nice but I've got more chargers in my town (we're not even a city) publicaly available than they have, or even have planned, across the whole of Europe.

I agree, the Ionity network is rather disappointing at the moment, but it will change. What I consider as very important is the standardisation of the several charging providers to be used with one card. There is a map on the Audi page, that shows approximately 100-200 fast chargers in the UK. However it doesn't seem to work properly, because there is no information on any charger provided and there is no description of what is considered as fast charging.
Probably even before petroleum revenue tax becomes obsolete, we will see similar or possibly higher costs for electric mobility in comparison with ICE.

caseys said:

IbrahimLafayette said:

Audi and Mercedes have their own factories, BMW probably as well but I'm not looking that up, to assemble the batteries. The only problem is that the battery cells are shipped from china. If there is a shortage, they will have production issues.

Right so still a weak point in the supply chain of parts. Looks like it's assembly. I think people will win when they have their own, or vastly contracted ability of kWh build capacity.

I've been a victim myself of waiting for a PHEV to turn up due to car company having supply issues from 3rd party. Either partner and bring it closer to being 'in-house' or suffer that delay in time-to-market / time-to-deliver

As already discussed a few paragraphs above, it will be an issue for a while.

caseys said:

IbrahimLafayette said:

Audi has OTA updates, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing. Tesla have been deactivating and activating certain features from time to time and the updates are mandatory. The current update disables Autopilot functionality on some cars, in the past there was lane assist that has been disabled for quite a while, the safety feature in the Model X doors that stop them when resistance is noticed was disabled etc.

Agree from the viewpoint that people don't like the walled garden/big brother esq approach. OTA updates also open up the can of worms in the long term regarding security and safety updates - when will certain updates be deemed mandatory, what if a car injures/kills/causes an accident without a safety patch applied etc? It's all fascinating.

I think conventional automobile manufactures already show better ethics on security and safety features/updates, I think that will continue with OTA updates.
It's one major issue I have with Tesla, having their adaptive cruise control autopilot in beta state and working with the miles driven by their customers to improve it. After all it is still a car and testing software on the public is surreal given the risks. Autopilot was rushed and marketed extensively to sell cars. It was not until 2016 when they first introduced the "Hold Steering Wheel" alert, in a system that uses the same hardware from Bosch or Continental as every other automobile manufacturer, but a different software. It might work well, but in emergency situations there are limitations and that's why the attention of the driver is needed at all times and the system should encourage that.

Edited by IbrahimLafayette on Wednesday 19th September 12:43

[ntiz]

IbrahimLafayette said:

I think conventional automobile manufactures already show better ethics on security and safety features/updates, I think that will continue with OTA updates.
It's one major issue I have with Tesla, having their adaptive cruise control autopilot in beta state and working with the miles driven by their customers to improve it. After all it is still a car and testing software on the public is surreal given the risks. Autopilot was rushed and marketed extensively to sell cars. It was not until 2016 when they first introduced the "Hold Steering Wheel" alert, in a system that uses the same hardware from Bosch or Continental as every other automobile manufacturer, but a different software. It might work well, but in emergency situations there are limitations and that's why the attention of the driver is needed at all times and the system should encourage that.

Edited by IbrahimLafayette on Wednesday 19th September 12:43

I was actually have a chat with a non Tesla owning mate the other day. He was telling me about how many lives it must have saved already.

From my experience the autopilot has never got me out of a dangerous situation but it has put me in them plenty of times. You definitely can't trust it absolutely yet and I think we are a good 10 years away from being able to.

To me it should be sold as high functioning cruise control VAG have a similar system now that steers etc but they don't sell it as autopilot they its just assisted cruise.

[modeller]

IbrahimLafayette said:

caseys said:

IbrahimLafayette said:

As far as I know, most of the battery research at the moment is done by universities or start ups, that are partly funded by established automobile manufactures. I'm sure in the future that will change, after all engines are also developed in-house and can present a significant advantage in the market. BMW has already laid the foundation with its research center dedicated to battery cell technology. Furthermore they commissioned CATL to build a factory in Thuringia. Daimler is building its second battery production center under their accumotive subsidiary.
The German manufactures have been hesitant to invest in cell production and as a consequence will have to buy from other manufactures for quite a while.
Large investment won't be made until it is clear what will be the leading storage materials in the long-term.

You might be interested in what https://faraday.ac.uk are doing. This is trying to identify and commercialise IP around batteries.

Oxford University invented the Li battery, but it was commercialised by Sony.