They're here.........genuine Tesla competitors
Discussion
kambites said:
CAPP0 said:
I passed a Kona on the motorway this morning; they're quite small. MUCH smaller than, say, an Evoque (there was one near to it for comparison), so it must also be much smaller than the iPace? It was the size of, and looked like, a Renault Captur.
Yeah it's actually a slightly smaller car than the Leaf. When the 60Kwh Leaf appears they'll be pretty much direct competitors. audi321 said:
croyde said:
Is it me? As I think Teslas look cheap. I know they are certainly not but if I was spending £100k plus on a car, I'd want it to look better than a cheap Chinese copy of something sporty.
Sorry but it's all a bit Emperors new clothes isn't it. No one dare speak out against Tesla but I think they look awful and badly built.
For £15k maybe but Porsche Turbo money, they can fek off. Rather have a Leaf.
The Model 3 is £30k (ish) and fwiw my Tesla is by far the best car I've ever owned, and I've had some nice cars in my time - including a Porsche turbo!Sorry but it's all a bit Emperors new clothes isn't it. No one dare speak out against Tesla but I think they look awful and badly built.
For £15k maybe but Porsche Turbo money, they can fek off. Rather have a Leaf.
Edited by audi321 on Monday 22 October 21:17
REALIST123 said:
You may well be right but it does look as if the future will be simply for faceless ‘utility transport’ and sales will be more on price and running costs more than any image. I can well see how many of today’s youngsters won’t bother to learn to drive with little aspirational reason to do so.
With overpopulation and congestion ‘driving’ Is becoming less and less of an attraction and it’s more and more about just getting from A to B.
The interesting thing about overpopulation is that there isn’t really a lot of evidence for it. The population of the U.K. hasn’t actually changed a huge amount and without immigration would have been falling. This is a similar effect being seen over much of the West. With overpopulation and congestion ‘driving’ Is becoming less and less of an attraction and it’s more and more about just getting from A to B.
Congestion is a massive issue but I don’t think it is related to overpopulation at all. There may be elements of localised population imbalances but the reality is that that 30 years ago you did not have all that many over 60s owning cars, you did not have easy access to debt to rent cars, you didn’t have the modern consumer economy where driving to remote shops was considered a perfectly normal hobby.
Whats really changed is the amount of income that is being considered disposable and allocated to consumption, the removal of consumer debt regulations that have combined to facilitate an ever increasing number of cars on the roads carrying out an ever increasing number of journeys.
I think that you are absolutely right that this rapid growth in general congestion, more cars, more journeys, more restricted arteries as space is allocated to other means of transport and as we have gone through a big cultural shift of the expansion of the number of households as more families live apart (possibly fuelled by the same drivers) but restricted the storage of the cars that belong to these households, it does seem to be very much the case that driving as a luxury, pastime etc has waned considerably and that we have entered an era of the car just being a utility box that for a fixed monthly fee will project a desired image or achieve a defined set of goals.
At the same time, Millenials are seemingly shying away from car ownership and the largest car owning demographic in the West will be gone in around 15 years. I do think that over the coming decade we will see an enormous change in the way that private transport is used and what it is. It is almost feasible to imagine that in 20 years time when the Boomers are no longer owning and using cars and the Millenials are sharing cars and taking far fewer journeys by private car that the whole issue of congestion as it currently stands has gone.
The key drivers of consumer purchases among Millenials in contrast to Boomers are also strikingly different and that is already having a huge impact on the way products are designed, branded and marketed.
I suspect that we will look at how transport is being used in the urban environment in twenty years time and be staggered by the change.
croyde said:
Is it me? As I think Teslas look cheap. I know they are certainly not but if I was spending £100k plus on a car, I'd want it to look better than a cheap Chinese copy of something sporty.
Sorry but it's all a bit Emperors new clothes isn't it. No one dare speak out against Tesla but I think they look awful and badly built.
For £15k maybe but Porsche Turbo money, they can fek off. Rather have a Leaf.
Not just you - to it looks like they forgot to stick the chrome grill on the front - the shape is there, all flattened off but no shiny bits. Whenever I see one of the saloon Teslas (whatever they are called) It reminds me of the purple, 1999 Chrysler 300 I nearly bought when living in Canada. Sorry but it's all a bit Emperors new clothes isn't it. No one dare speak out against Tesla but I think they look awful and badly built.
For £15k maybe but Porsche Turbo money, they can fek off. Rather have a Leaf.
And then theres that ridiculous flat panel screen inside
DonkeyApple said:
REALIST123 said:
You may well be right but it does look as if the future will be simply for faceless ‘utility transport’ and sales will be more on price and running costs more than any image. I can well see how many of today’s youngsters won’t bother to learn to drive with little aspirational reason to do so.
With overpopulation and congestion ‘driving’ Is becoming less and less of an attraction and it’s more and more about just getting from A to B.
The interesting thing about overpopulation is that there isn’t really a lot of evidence for it. The population of the U.K. hasn’t actually changed a huge amount and without immigration would have been falling. This is a similar effect being seen over much of the West. With overpopulation and congestion ‘driving’ Is becoming less and less of an attraction and it’s more and more about just getting from A to B.
The rate of world population growth is slowing but it’s still growing and predicted to carry on growing.
But look at car ownership and journeys etc. Their growth rate is very clearly not a result of the modest population growth but the explosion of wealth and the number of people who can afford a car:
And this graph on population shows growth net of and inclusive of immigration, which is quite interesting but does risk triggering a Brexit diversion.
I really don’t see population increase as the big driver but that there are larger drivers such as more people owning cars, more journeys and restrictions on urban road networks.
The chart you posted suggests a population growth since the 50s of 0.5x? But the car ownership graph suggests an increase of 7x. To me that does show the truer issue?
And this graph on population shows growth net of and inclusive of immigration, which is quite interesting but does risk triggering a Brexit diversion.
I really don’t see population increase as the big driver but that there are larger drivers such as more people owning cars, more journeys and restrictions on urban road networks.
The chart you posted suggests a population growth since the 50s of 0.5x? But the car ownership graph suggests an increase of 7x. To me that does show the truer issue?
But it's not politically correct to tell people they need to drive less. DonkeyApple said:
But look at car ownership and journeys etc. Their growth rate is very clearly not a result of the modest population growth but the explosion of wealth and the number of people who can afford a car:
And this graph on population shows growth net of and inclusive of immigration, which is quite interesting but does risk triggering a Brexit diversion.
I really don’t see population increase as the big driver but that there are larger drivers such as more people owning cars, more journeys and restrictions on urban road networks.
The chart you posted suggests a population growth since the 50s of 0.5x? But the car ownership graph suggests an increase of 7x. To me that does show the truer issue?
Wouldn’t argue with your final statement. I didn’t mean to imply that population growth had caused congestion, though it is clearly a factor. And this graph on population shows growth net of and inclusive of immigration, which is quite interesting but does risk triggering a Brexit diversion.
I really don’t see population increase as the big driver but that there are larger drivers such as more people owning cars, more journeys and restrictions on urban road networks.
The chart you posted suggests a population growth since the 50s of 0.5x? But the car ownership graph suggests an increase of 7x. To me that does show the truer issue?
If the population hadn’t increased as it has, we’d still have had a lot more cars, but presumably fewer than we actually do?
REALIST123 said:
Wouldn’t argue with your final statement. I didn’t mean to imply that population growth had caused congestion, though it is clearly a factor.
If the population hadn’t increased as it has, we’d still have had a lot more cars, but presumably fewer than we actually do?
Yup. But I guess the answer would be defined by how the population has grown and whether those new inhabitants own cars or how many of them do. If the bulk of population growth has been via adult immigration it would be logical to assume the own more cars than children etc. If the population hadn’t increased as it has, we’d still have had a lot more cars, but presumably fewer than we actually do?
It’s definitely a contributor but I think the rise in ownership combined with the inability to walk 100 yards are much larger contributors. If you’re a similar age to me, 45, then when we were kids in the 70s and 80s most pensioners had never owned a car or were dead, today pensioners are the largest demographic (until last year I think when under 25s passed them) and huge numbers own cars. Likewise, most working families own none or one car and walked short distances and used public transport for long distances. Today, households own multiple cars and drive the majority of their journeys. As I see it, it is our enormous and rapid growth in wealth combined with the huge fall in the cost of car ownership that has lead us to what we see around us today.
REALIST123 said:
If the population hadn’t increased as it has, we’d still have had a lot more cars, but presumably fewer than we actually do?
Probably true, but almost certainly not to the degree that the population has risen, if that makes sense. It's pretty well accepted that if you create more road space (either by building roads or taking away people) society will adjust by driving more. I suspect dropping the population back to the levels they were at 50 years ago would ultimately drop traffic levels by a single figure percentage. I’m a little surprised someone would put Hyundai and Tesla in the same sentence but surely the actual Kona competition is a much cheaper Kona with a petrol or diesel engine? If I recall the EV version carries a significant price premium and it’s the same ol’ Kona with no packaging benefits etc.
DMZ said:
I’m a little surprised someone would put Hyundai and Tesla in the same sentence but surely the actual Kona competition is a much cheaper Kona with a petrol or diesel engine? If I recall the EV version carries a significant price premium and it’s the same ol’ Kona with no packaging benefits etc.
I think this is part of the big group of questions that the next couple of years will give the answers to. Is the Tesla primarily being bought for its brand power and image projection or because it is actually an EV. It’s a very interwoven question at present but seems fair to at least posit that one is a function of the other.
At the other end of the spectrum are the EVs that do not have the same branding or target audience. Will they be reliant on the same commercial rules as has always been or will a younger generation of buyers change this.
Under the current rules people shop by brand and price. The Kona won’t really sell in the West as it it to all intents and purposes an extremely expensive means to announce to the world that you are poor. Jaguar, Porsche, BMW have a different brand positioning and their EVs may be seen as additional status symbols that announce not only that you are rich enough to purchase the car but also, unlike a normal premium car, the EV also announces that you are rich enough to own a driveway and probably more than one car.
Obviously that is very hyperbolic before anyone gets too overly emotional but it is highlighting the fundamental rules of consumption. If the price is premium then the product projection has to be and if the image is cheap then so must the price be etc. It is Afterall why the start of the 21st century will be referred to in the history books as the era of peak turd polish.
. We have reached the point where all goods must either be seen to be premium or be priced as cheap. Hence why discount supermarkets now put all their 5p floor sweepings pizzas in exictive black boxes with premium gold writing. Or the Kona may not follow the traditional rules and we learn that the rise of women with purchasing power and the rise of young men thinking and acting like women leads to a big shift in who is buying what and why.
In the EV world I personally think that female buyers will play a very dominant role in defining which brands and products sell better than others. We’ve not seen this yet. It is mostly men. It’s men buying Tesla’s to inform their peers that they are better human beings, it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife so they can inform their peers that they are richer than them. Wherever you look it’s all men buying EVs. The type who like to buy man bangles, iPhones and all sorts of other fripperies. It’s in segments like the Leaf that you start seeing female buyers. Maybe the Kona will be driven by a rising female EV buying segment.
But then I expected this to happen with the i3 and am still surprised. And with no laws forcing EVs into consumers and no overt financial benefits over other options they remain a bit of a luxury purchase and do people who make luxury purchases opt for premium brands or discount brands?
Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 13th November 10:14
New cars in general are a luxury purchase so that's not going to change until there's a significant number of used EVs on the market.
If you look at the difference in price between diesel and electric Konas and the life expectancy of such cars, the total cost of ownership at current energy prices looks broadly similar over the lifetime of the vehicle. EVs are getting cheaper though and diesel prices are likely to go up faster than electricity ones, at least in the short-medium term.
I think the fact that we seem to be approaching TCO parity on budget cars is in itself quite interesting.
If you look at the difference in price between diesel and electric Konas and the life expectancy of such cars, the total cost of ownership at current energy prices looks broadly similar over the lifetime of the vehicle. EVs are getting cheaper though and diesel prices are likely to go up faster than electricity ones, at least in the short-medium term.
I think the fact that we seem to be approaching TCO parity on budget cars is in itself quite interesting.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th November 10:41
I completely agree. The Kona is a very practical car in terms of size, it meets a huge % of household requirements in that regard. It’s range of 200 miles makes it extremely usable for a very significant number of users in this segment. Even people who cannot home charge could find a means to use it if they really wanted to. And the cost isn’t shocking especially when broken down into easy to manage monthly instalments.
It is maybe going to be the car that clarifies the real truth about EVs and whether the millions who say they want to buy an EV are actually just spouting guff or are genuinely serious. To date the EV market has been a bit like the electorate at polling time in recent years, they will publicly say exactly what they perceive they want the public to hear but behind closed doors what they actually do is very different.
It is maybe going to be the car that clarifies the real truth about EVs and whether the millions who say they want to buy an EV are actually just spouting guff or are genuinely serious. To date the EV market has been a bit like the electorate at polling time in recent years, they will publicly say exactly what they perceive they want the public to hear but behind closed doors what they actually do is very different.
Look at what cars people buy now who don't care about driving.
The vast majority are in sub £10k vehicles, these people will not be buying £30k electric cars, they don't care enough to justify the cost!
My wife needs a car to be reliable, comfortable and reasonable to run, she drives a Diesel Skoda, she likes it because it has heated seats and a small amount of performance. She is happy with a car we purchased for £3k 2 years ago, it wouldn't even occur to her to look at a £30k electric car!
Yes that's a sample of 1 however I doubt she is alone, all her friends drive ups, polos ... cheap reliable motors with music streaming.
The vast majority are in sub £10k vehicles, these people will not be buying £30k electric cars, they don't care enough to justify the cost!
My wife needs a car to be reliable, comfortable and reasonable to run, she drives a Diesel Skoda, she likes it because it has heated seats and a small amount of performance. She is happy with a car we purchased for £3k 2 years ago, it wouldn't even occur to her to look at a £30k electric car!
Yes that's a sample of 1 however I doubt she is alone, all her friends drive ups, polos ... cheap reliable motors with music streaming.
The wider picture is that 2.5m new cars were bought in the U.K. in 2017.
The biggest sellers were:
1. Ford Fiesta
2. Volkswagen Golf
3. Ford Focus
4. Nissan Qashqai
5. Vauxhall Corsa
6. Vauxhall Astra
7. Volkswagen Polo
8. MINI hatchback
9. Mercedes C-Class
10. Mercedes A-Class
That suggests that cars like the Kona, Leaf or Bolt are in the right place in terms of company branding and size to be targeting the highest volume segments.
I would think that we would need to find data for sales volume weighted by price to see clearly the buyer segment they slot into. What you might see at that point is the break away from shopping by price to shopping by brand/image. It might show that the Kona’s price sits it bang in amongst the Audi’s, BMWs and Mercs etc and that would raise a big red flag as to whether those buyers are willing to exchange the purchasing of brand image for powertrain image.
That would be the big breakthrough for EVs in the wider market and something Tesla is the absolute king of as shown with the recent data that image driven consumers have been trading out of 3 Series BMWs in California (5th largest economy on the planet of categorised as a country) into the Model 3.
Maybe the price of fuel will also help steer new buyers to EVs in 2019. We have reached 130/litre and we know from recent history that at the 150/litre mark consumers specifically begin to change and adapt their spending patterns. It reasonable to assume that we could see those prices being hit again next year as US sanctions bite further and that may transpire to be a really big tipping point in new buyer’s decision making processes?
The biggest sellers were:
1. Ford Fiesta
2. Volkswagen Golf
3. Ford Focus
4. Nissan Qashqai
5. Vauxhall Corsa
6. Vauxhall Astra
7. Volkswagen Polo
8. MINI hatchback
9. Mercedes C-Class
10. Mercedes A-Class
That suggests that cars like the Kona, Leaf or Bolt are in the right place in terms of company branding and size to be targeting the highest volume segments.
I would think that we would need to find data for sales volume weighted by price to see clearly the buyer segment they slot into. What you might see at that point is the break away from shopping by price to shopping by brand/image. It might show that the Kona’s price sits it bang in amongst the Audi’s, BMWs and Mercs etc and that would raise a big red flag as to whether those buyers are willing to exchange the purchasing of brand image for powertrain image.
That would be the big breakthrough for EVs in the wider market and something Tesla is the absolute king of as shown with the recent data that image driven consumers have been trading out of 3 Series BMWs in California (5th largest economy on the planet of categorised as a country) into the Model 3.
Maybe the price of fuel will also help steer new buyers to EVs in 2019. We have reached 130/litre and we know from recent history that at the 150/litre mark consumers specifically begin to change and adapt their spending patterns. It reasonable to assume that we could see those prices being hit again next year as US sanctions bite further and that may transpire to be a really big tipping point in new buyer’s decision making processes?
Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 13th November 11:21
joshcowin said:
Look at what cars people buy now who don't care about driving.
The vast majority are in sub £10k vehicles,
If you mean new cars, that's simply not true. I doubt more than 5% of new cars registered in the UK have a list price of under £10k and I suspect the average price is well over £20k. The vast majority are in sub £10k vehicles,
If you're including used purchases... well of course a new car is going to be more expensive. EVs are undoubtedly still expensive things to buy but they're not three times (or even twice) the price of equivalent ICE powered cars in any segment where you can realistically compare like with like.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th November 11:20
DonkeyApple said:
In the EV world I personally think that female buyers will play a very dominant role in defining which brands and products sell better than others. We’ve not seen this yet. It is mostly men. It’s men buying Tesla’s to inform their peers that they are better human beings, it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife so they can inform their peers that they are richer than them. Wherever you look it’s all men buying EVs. The type who like to buy man bangles, iPhones and all sorts of other fripperies. It’s in segments like the Leaf that you start seeing female buyers. Maybe the Kona will be driven by a rising female EV buying segment.
When we bought our Tesla, it was something I encouraged my wife to look at (her driving profile suits EVs - high mileage made up lots of short journeys that usually end daily at home). She quite happily drove around in a massive Toyota Landcruiser V8. She wasn't ready for a full EV so we bought an Outlander. She then saw that EV driving was entirely possible for her - and was annoyed that only 20ish miles a day were electric. I arranged a test drive and we bought the car on the spot.Now she LOVES her Tesla. She is messianic about it. She's never had such an affinity for any of her cars over the years. Women love to ask her about it too - they have never done it about any other car she's had.
Oh - and she's an eminent doctor and has no need for me to buy her cars for her, so you might need to re-calibrate your "it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife" thinking.
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