PHEV cars rarely Charged and run on Petrol

[Jag_NE]

dmsims said:

Jag_NE said:

A euro6 diesel evoque is infinitely nicer than an outlander with similar nox with about half the co2 output

In your fantasy world (which has moved from "practically and environmentally")

CO2
Evoque 129
Outlander PHEV 44

The whole point of the thread is that many users don’t ever charge them, real world i would estimate the co2 to be 200+.

[dmsims]

Jag_NE said:

The whole point of the thread is that many users don’t ever charge them, real world i would estimate the co2 to be 200+.

Nothing like an estimate but the real figure is 183 for petrol engine only

There are other real pollutants like NOX and particulates

can you show me the figures for "with similar nox" ?

Evoque is not Euro6 compliant in the real world

[andyalan10]

Going back to the original story, because I think we've done to death the fact that Jag_NE is obsessed by them :-)

The numbers quoted were that PHEVs were averaging 39.6mpg on fuel, and some were not being charged at all. Given that they are all medium-large cars I would say that is very likely a very good result. The only way we'd know for certain is if they had bothered to report a similar figure for petrol only or diesel only vehicles of a similar size.

From my own experience the Mitsubishi is very good at cutting the petrol engine on the slightest downgrades, trailing throttle etc. So even with a "flat" battery it's still running on electric some of the time, admittedly electricity generated by braking or the engine.

As for real world economy, my 2.0 diesel estate returns mid to high 30s on short runs, can be stretched to 50ish on long gentle journeys, and I really quite like the idea of a C350e estate to replace it. And I don't think enlarging batteries is the correct way to go, 20 to 30 miles is fine for many people's typical use over a few days, and another 20-30 miles of range is irrelevant when a long journey is being undertaken, it just adds weight and cost.

Andy

[Jag_NE]

dmsims said:

Nothing like an estimate but the real figure is 183 for petrol engine only

There are other real pollutants like NOX and particulates

can you show me the figures for "with similar nox" ?

Evoque is not Euro6 compliant in the real world

200+ is probably bang on for real world co2 if the 183 is the official number. Fuel cards don’t tend to promote economical driving.

[herewego]

Yes the issue is that only those vehicles that actually achieve the maker's high mpg promises should get the grants and tax breaks. I think the vehicles computers would need to be interrogated.

[xx99xx]

The government could make the tax on personal use fuel cards so expensive that it wasn't worth having as a perk (for owners of company PHEVs). Then you'd probably see a bit more charging going on.

However, if people still don't charge the battery and they have to pay for their own fuel, then the savings made on lower BIK could be wiped out by higher fuel costs. I personally don't see the problem with charging at home overnight. Plug it in and leave it. Hardly a hassle.

Where I work, PHEV cars leased through the business will only get approval if you can prove (with photos and then a site inspection) that you have off road parking. You also have to have a charger installed. Well you don't have to have it installed but they'll charge you for one whether you have it installed or not. I suspect many company PHEVs have owners without off road parking so I can understand why they wouldn't get charged often.

[Russ T Bolt]

Jag_NE said:

Russ T Bolt said:

Jag_NE said:

cj2013 said:

Jag_NE said:

Yes, crap power train aside they are still awful cars.

You seem to be quite bothered by them. I've heard nothing but glowing reports from everyone who owns one. Most dealers sell them as soon as they arrive, too.

They are awful inside and out.

I disagree, what car do you drive so that I can make a random judgement on it ?

I have an XF.

And you still think the Outlander is an awful car, odd.

[Jag_NE]

Russ T Bolt said:

Jag_NE said:

Russ T Bolt said:

Jag_NE said:

cj2013 said:

Jag_NE said:

Yes, crap power train aside they are still awful cars.

You seem to be quite bothered by them. I've heard nothing but glowing reports from everyone who owns one. Most dealers sell them as soon as they arrive, too.

They are awful inside and out.

I disagree, what car do you drive so that I can make a random judgement on it ?

I have an XF.

And you still think the Outlander is an awful car, odd.

I don’t rate the XF very highly, its been very unreliable. But yes, the outlander phev is an utter turd of a car.

[Jag_NE]

Russ T Bolt said:

Jag_NE said:

Russ T Bolt said:

Jag_NE said:

cj2013 said:

Jag_NE said:

Yes, crap power train aside they are still awful cars.

You seem to be quite bothered by them. I've heard nothing but glowing reports from everyone who owns one. Most dealers sell them as soon as they arrive, too.

They are awful inside and out.

I disagree, what car do you drive so that I can make a random judgement on it ?

I have an XF.

And you still think the Outlander is an awful car, odd.

I don’t rate the XF very highly, its been very unreliable. But yes, the outlander phev is an utter turd of a car.

[andburg]

cant fault the findings here

half the fleet here seems to be a golf or passat GTE

those on fuel cards dont break 40mpg as they have no incentive to charge the car, the few who gave up cards do charge at home but the company has not provided any chargepoints.

It would be interesting to see the results of an EV fuelcard and a reduced level of taxation applied to those who take the EV card but claim mileage rates.

[DonkeyApple]

What’s the reason for PHEV SUVs having such low ranges? They do just seem to have the bare minimum to enable being classified as hybrids and I can see those particular legislative goalposts being moved sooner rather than later.

Something with a 100 mile electric range would be genuinely useful rather than just appearing to be a bit of a messy, inefficient and not particularly environmental tax wheeze?

Also, what’s the reason for not being able to plug a Lexus Gx400 in as that seems to have a good EV range and a nice petrol engine when needed?

[herewego]

DonkeyApple said:

What’s the reason for PHEV SUVs having such low ranges? They do just seem to have the bare minimum to enable being classified as hybrids and I can see those particular legislative goalposts being moved sooner rather than later.

Something with a 100 mile electric range would be genuinely useful rather than just appearing to be a bit of a messy, inefficient and not particularly environmental tax wheeze?

Also, what’s the reason for not being able to plug a Lexus Gx400 in as that seems to have a good EV range and a nice petrol engine when needed?

They were obvious cynical designs by German makers to game the tax rules and get their cars to the head of the company car lists. The testing and taxing regime has now changed to some extent.

[WestyCarl]

xx99xx said:

The government could make the tax on personal use fuel cards so expensive that it wasn't worth having as a perk (for owners of company PHEVs). Then you'd probably see a bit more charging going on.

However, if people still don't charge the battery and they have to pay for their own fuel, then the savings made on lower BIK could be wiped out by higher fuel costs. I personally don't see the problem with charging at home overnight. Plug it in and leave it. Hardly a hassle.

Where I work, PHEV cars leased through the business will only get approval if you can prove (with photos and then a site inspection) that you have off road parking. You also have to have a charger installed. Well you don't have to have it installed but they'll charge you for one whether you have it installed or not. I suspect many company PHEVs have owners without off road parking so I can understand why they wouldn't get charged often.

Exactly, I don't see it as a Government fault but the companies. We're switching from Diesel's to Hybrids if staff want. The only stipulation is that we must see a reduction in fuel costs or the staff are liable for any increase. Due to this some of the high millage staff are sticking to Diesel's.

Can't understand a company switching to car's that may cost them a significant amount more in fuel without any staff clauses (especially as the cars are usually more expensive to start with)

[DonkeyApple]

herewego said:

They were obvious cynical designs by German makers to game the tax rules and get their cars to the head of the company car lists. The testing and taxing regime has now changed to some extent.

I have to say that while looking at the X5 PHEV and noticing the EV Range was 19 Miles my initial assumption was that they had just crammed in a load of costly and complex crap to just game the tax system and get a load of corporate credits to boot. And looking a little further most of the other options seemed to be no different.

[telecat]

Cynically I think Most PHEV's are designed to get into London without a congestion charge. In which case I would just buy a CR-Z and have a proper gearbox.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

I have to say that while looking at the X5 PHEV and noticing the EV Range was 19 Miles my initial assumption was that they had just crammed in a load of costly and complex crap to just game the tax system and get a load of corporate credits to boot. And looking a little further most of the other options seemed to be no different.

Honestly though, you're all looking at it the wrong way. It's not about being able to drive 300 miles on one charge. It is about day to day motoring i.e. commuting not having to use fuel. 19 miles is quite a lot considering you can also go motorway speeds with that. Even if your commute is 30 miles, you can do more than half of it without fuel. Charge it at work, and do the same on the way back. If you take the car to the nearest station and then commute by train, it is likely that you could get to and from the station on one charge making commuting to the station basically free. If it wasn't a hybrid it would probably be doing ~18mpg on that journey.

For commuting, I would say that a hybrid is pretty ideal.

ETA: at the point where daily driving is basically free, who cares that it does 18 mpg the rest of the time? The average mpg will still be a lot higher than if it wasn't a hybrid. I agree that riding it round without charging it is pointless.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 12th November 16:11

[DonkeyApple]

I was looking at the X5 as the school run/shopping car. 19 miles isn’t really enough. Especially as that is BMw’s concept of 19 which I would be fair to assume that is in reality a much smaller number in the real world.

At the same time, it would be used for the weekend run into London as an X5 would be a decent motorway hack with the family onboard. This means it needs to be ULEZ complaint and it is perfectly fair to expect the definition of what is a hybrid to move as soon as they can get away with it.

Getting on towards having 100 mile range on electric would put it in the easiest space. I wouldn’t have to go out and plug it in every time the wife brought it back as she sure as Hell wouldn’t. And it covers all local school, lifestyle and social related activities.

[WestyCarl]

I have the 530e, real world range is maybe 21-24 miles on elec very much dependent on how heavy the right foot is.

My daily commute is 20 miles, usually once / twice a week to somewhere 70-80 miles away with no destination charging (150 round trip). Evenings and weekends are I guess like most "average" people, ferrying kids to sports / etc.

It gets charged over night at home and during the day at work. So far after 4 months 69 mpg average. It's actually quite clever if you use the Sat Nav and will save some millage for the last few miles into a town / city where the ICE is at it most uneconomical.

It surprisingly matched the 530d in a reasonable real world test https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/bmwelectricpowers/

[anonymous-user]

Russ T Bolt said:

Jag_NE said:

Russ T Bolt said:

Jag_NE said:

cj2013 said:

Jag_NE said:

Yes, crap power train aside they are still awful cars.

You seem to be quite bothered by them. I've heard nothing but glowing reports from everyone who owns one. Most dealers sell them as soon as they arrive, too.

They are awful inside and out.

I disagree, what car do you drive so that I can make a random judgement on it ?

I have an XF.

And you still think the Outlander is an awful car, odd.

Are you really saying you think the outlander’s better than the XF?

Let me give you a clue; one regularly achieves 4+ out of 5 stars in reviews and is credited with ‘class leading dynamics’.

The other manages 2 stars in most categories, though it’s cheap price and space are occasionally credited with more.

I guess none of those reviewers have a clue?

[Merry]

DonkeyApple said:

What’s the reason for PHEV SUVs having such low ranges? They do just seem to have the bare minimum to enable being classified as hybrids and I can see those particular legislative goalposts being moved sooner rather than later.

Something with a 100 mile electric range would be genuinely useful rather than just appearing to be a bit of a messy, inefficient and not particularly environmental tax wheeze?

Also, what’s the reason for not being able to plug a Lexus Gx400 in as that seems to have a good EV range and a nice petrol engine when needed?

I suspect the issue is packaging. I suspect lot of the German stuff wasn't designed with batteries in mind and therefore have limited space to put them.

Others, such as the Outlander it's probably a case of cost/what was available at the time. They've been for sale for I guess about 5 years now? There's been a few leaps in battery tech since then.

I don't see any reason why someone couldn't fit a 24kwh pack where the existing one is now. I find the range as it is useful, but doubling it would be great.