Batteries dead after 5 years

Batteries dead after 5 years

Author
Discussion

kambites

57,446 posts

167 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
Monkeylegend said:
Of course, but batteries have a finite life and degrade over time irrespective of how well they are driven or the car is serviced.
As do internal combustion engines and by all accounts the real-world lifespan is on average of the same order of magnitude. As battery conditioning and cooling improves I think we'll see EVs streak away from ICE powered cars in terms of longevity. There just so much less to go wrong. smile

Personally I wont buy an EV with a passively cooled battery pack though. It does seem to be asking for trouble.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th November 14:04

Max_Torque

14,088 posts

163 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
So when the timing belt goes south on a 5 year old diesel, you would obvs go to the main dealer, and buy a brand new engine, for probably £8k once you've had that same dealer fit it?? Like heck you would. All that will have happened is that a battery cell will have failed in the battery. An easy aftermarket fix or at the worst, a s/h battery from a salvage car and you're back on the road for a fraction of the ridiculous price quoted......


(btw, the car mentioned here is a very niche, early model, when EVs become mainstream, there will automatically be a nice supply of s/h batteries from s/h and crashed cars, just like there is with engines and bits from ICE models.. Last year my neighbours focus spanned itself, £500 later and she had a "new" engine thrown in from a scrappers and she'd back on the road. I fail to see how an EV will be any different!)

Terminator X

7,948 posts

150 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
boyse7en said:
It a bit disingenuous to lump the costs of the replacement batteries into the cost of fuelling the car over it's lifetime. If an ICE car had a catastrophic engine failure (á la Porsche and BMW a few years ago) outside of warranty then it would be seen as a one-off cost of however many thousands to replace it.

Better to look at the total cost of ownership over the lifetime - which in this case is stratospherically high. Certainly if batteries routinely start failing at this sort of mileage/age then there is an issue. If it is a one-off then while annoying and expensive for the customer it is not really an issue that the wider public needs to be overly worried about.
It isn't that though is it, a more accurate analogy is the water pump needed replacing in the ICE car albeit at an extortionate cost.

TX.

hunter 66

2,836 posts

166 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
Missed a shift on my ICE and new engine was 20 K and 6 k to fit ......could not happen in the Tesla

gangzoom

2,221 posts

161 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
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lowdrag said:
What the price in the UK was interests me not because the car was bought in France, and that is the price quoted in the motoring magazine. There are many discrepancies in pricing between the two countries, and not only cars. An electric golf trolley is 50% dearer in France than in the UK for example - exactly the same make and model.
Electric golf trolley is 50% MORE in France so an EV will be 50% cheaper in the UK?

I would suggest you check where this motoring magazine is getting their facts from.

As for battery replacement costs €17k is nearly what Tesla charges for a 85kWh pack. The iOn has only a 15kWh pack so paying €17k for one is just maddness.

I suspect what the magazine has done is got hold of a story, found some random numbers, massaged the facts to produce a dramatic headline so their story is talked about......

Given the fact this post exists shows the 'journalist' has done their job, but unless you can point to the source of this news there will be no more traffic for the particular magazine so not quite job done.

Come to think of it how does a brand new car that apparently cost €11k a few years ago need a part that costs €17k a few years later. The amount of BS written about EVs on the web really is mind boggling.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 13th November 15:03

R4PID

1,053 posts

191 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
Coolbanana said:
It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the change that is coming. smile

Car ownership is changing too. You are expecting the purchase and ownership of new cars that can be run for decades and the purchase of older cars to continue to be a normality but actually owning cars will be the preserve of the very few in years to come. Leasing cars will become the norm with cars older than 3-5 years getting recycled.

The Future is not just about changing from ICE to EV and other alternative propulsion methods but also about car ownership itself and how we commute and travel. Autonomous vehicles you do not own, only call upon, vehicles you lease for set periods from days, weeks, months to a couple of years...long term use will die. Old cars on the roads will become a thing of the past. smile

Travel by car will be a monthly expense similar to a mobile phone contract. You won't actually own a car. Simply pay for the use of one.
I think I was just a little bit sick in my mouth.

R4PID

1,053 posts

191 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
hunter 66 said:
Missed a shift on my ICE and new engine was 20 K and 6 k to fit ......could not happen in the Tesla
What ICE was it...!?

HustleRussell

16,889 posts

106 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
hunter 66 said:
Missed a shift on my ICE and new engine was 20 K and 6 k to fit ......could not happen in the Tesla
Or any mainstream production car made in the last 25 years or more.

kambites

57,446 posts

167 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
hunter 66 said:
Missed a shift on my ICE and new engine was 20 K and 6 k to fit ......could not happen in the Tesla
Or any mainstream production car made in the last 25 years or more.
Really? Why?

It's quite a common way to kill Elises - go for fourth and get second instead (because the gate is so close-set). I know the Elise isn't a mainstream car but the engine and gearbox is. I can't see how a manufacturer could protect against it unless cars actually refuse to engage the clutch if it would push the engine over its rev limiter? Obviously a decent automatic will prevent it.

otolith

38,799 posts

150 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
hunter 66 said:
Missed a shift on my ICE and new engine was 20 K and 6 k to fit ......could not happen in the Tesla
Or any mainstream production car made in the last 25 years or more.
You can buzz any manual car.

PixelpeepS3

5,722 posts

88 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
You can still buy new battery packs from Nissan, with prices (in Japan) for the 24kWh at £4,300, 30kWh at £5,300 and the 40kWh at £5,450. But if, as Nissan are planning, the re fabricated battery range is extended to all battery pack sizes, then even a re fabricated 40kWh battery pack should cost around £2,500.

http://www.carsuk.net/cost-of-replacing-the-nissan...

Fancy buying an out of warranty V10 M5?

a gearbox would cost HOW MUCH?!

HustleRussell

16,889 posts

106 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
otolith said:
HustleRussell said:
hunter 66 said:
Missed a shift on my ICE and new engine was 20 K and 6 k to fit ......could not happen in the Tesla
Or any mainstream production car made in the last 25 years or more.
You can buzz any manual car.
I know that all too well, however hunter 66 'missed a shift'?

RizzoTheRat

18,331 posts

138 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
gangzoom said:
Electric golf trolley is 50% MORE in France so an EV will be 50% cheaper in the UK?

I would suggest you check where this motoring magazine is getting their facts from.

As for battery replacement costs €17k is nearly what Tesla charges for a 85kWh pack. The iOn has only a 15kWh pack so paying €17k for one is just maddness.

I suspect what the magazine has done is got hold of a story, found some random numbers, massaged the facts to produce a dramatic headline so their story is talked about......

Given the fact this post exists shows the 'journalist' has done their job, but unless you can point to the source of this news there will be no more traffic for the particular magazine so not quite job done.

Come to think of it how does a brand new car that apparently cost €11k a few years ago need a part that costs €17k a few years later. The amount of BS written about EVs on the web really is mind boggling.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 13th November 15:03
Because grants and incentives mean nobody currently pays the list price for an EV. Currently with the grant and scrappage scheme you can get up to €10k off an EV in France. I don't think it was quite that good a deal when this bloke bought his, but deals vary a lot between countries. Taxation will be different too, do you pay VAT on EVs in the UK?

otolith

38,799 posts

150 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
otolith said:
HustleRussell said:
hunter 66 said:
Missed a shift on my ICE and new engine was 20 K and 6 k to fit ......could not happen in the Tesla
Or any mainstream production car made in the last 25 years or more.
You can buzz any manual car.
I know that all too well, however hunter 66 'missed a shift'?
I'm assuming he means that he missed the right slot? As you say, you can't over-rev them on the throttle.

Monkeylegend

16,470 posts

177 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
kambites said:
Monkeylegend said:
Of course, but batteries have a finite life and degrade over time irrespective of how well they are driven or the car is serviced.
As do internal combustion engines and by all accounts the real-world lifespan is on average of the same order of magnitude. As battery conditioning and cooling improves I think we'll see EVs streak away from ICE powered cars in terms of longevity. There just so much less to go wrong. smile

Personally I wont buy an EV with a passively cooled battery pack though. It does seem to be asking for trouble.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th November 14:04
Don't known about you but in my driving career of 50 years I have had at least 50 cars and averaged about 20k miles a year, and for the last 15 years averaged 100k miles a year, and in all that time I have never had a single engine failure.

I hate to think how many of today's battery packs I would have worn out covering the same distance.

gangzoom

2,221 posts

161 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
Monkeylegend said:
Don't known about you but in my driving career of 50 years I have had at least 50 cars and averaged about 20k miles a year, and for the last 15 years averaged 100k miles a year, and in all that time I have never had a single engine failure.

I hate to think how many of today's battery packs I would have worn out covering the same distance.
100K on a Tesla 85kWh pack is fine, 200K+ and your start to see significantly degredation.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degra...

If you just Supercharge 100% of the time pack life is shortened, to around 150-200K. Supercharging is like running a combustion engine at the rev limit for 1hr non stop. 'Normal' overnight charging has much less deterement to pack life.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds...

ruggedscotty

1,548 posts

155 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
So many scare stories about EV's and battery costs - its the only thing they can hook on to and scare people with colossal repair bills.

A battery pack is different to a UPS battery, A UPS battery is never properly exercised, it sits there waiting to fill in the gap and is maintained charged ready to go. Batteries don't like this, they deteriorate if not exercised. An EV if being used properly will have a good life span, the batteries being exercised discharged and charged regularly. That is the secret. well actually not a secret as its been known for ages. Batteries hate being deep discharged so regular use and recharging keeps them in good form.


EV's are in their infancy people don't understand them yet, we are on a learning curve and getting to know the cars and lifespan of the battery packs will take some doing. Id say the factoring in a battery pack cost compared to fuel cost and mileage covered is a pretty good way to go.


cost per mile its a good way to equate service life of a vehicle. As more and more vehicles come on line we will get a better understanding. mind you this cost benefit against ICE's you still need to take into account the ICE's detrimental effect on the planet.

otolith

38,799 posts

150 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
There seems to be a lot of FUD spreading.

kambites

57,446 posts

167 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
Monkeylegend said:
I hate to think how many of today's battery packs I would have worn out covering the same distance.
It's a nonsensical question because EVs aren't really suitable for such an extreme use-case anyway. The median and mean average car in the UK does less than 8k miles a year and less than 150k over the lifetime of the vehicle. The better current EVs battery packs can comfortably cope with that sort of usage.

Yes of course there will be early failures, just as there are early failures with internal combustion engines. I don't think there's enough evidence out there to say which technology is more prone to them yet but it's clear that they're pretty rare on both. Certainly rare enough that buying either with the intention of running it for a fairly typical use cycle wouldn't worry me.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th November 16:23

Monkeylegend

16,470 posts

177 months

Tuesday 13th November 2018
quotequote all
kambites said:
Monkeylegend said:
I hate to think how many of today's battery packs I would have worn out covering the same distance.
It's a nonsensical question because EVs aren't really suitable for such an extreme use-case anyway. The median and mean average car in the UK does less than 8k miles a year and less than 150k over the lifetime of the vehicle. The better current EVs battery packs can comfortably cope with that sort of usage.

Yes of course there will be early failures, just as there are early failures with internal combustion engines. I don't think there's enough evidence out there to say which technology is more prone to them yet but it's clear that they're pretty rare on both. Certainly rare enough that buying either with the intention of running it for a fairly typical use cycle wouldn't worry me.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th November 16:23
But if they are to be a replacement for the ICE they need to be suitable for "extreme case use" as you put it, and as I see it we are many years away from that situation, assuming we ever get there.