Self charging hybrids. Why?
Discussion
ATM said:
I'll be honest a lot of these acronyms have lost me. If I may loop back round to the hybrid I had - mentioned above. It could not do plug in charging. It could drive on elec only for a couple of miles if charge available. It would do elec and fossil combined if you gunned it. It could harvest from braking or engine. What acronyms therefore applied to it?
330e can only by run as a parallel hybrid. The issue with the setup is electric range is tiny and once the electricty is depleted the combustion engine is having to drag around dead weight.The Toyota setup is using the 'EV' bit all the time to enable a more efficent combustion cycle than what any normal parallel hybrid cannot achieve.
Run a 330e and IS300H both on the same trip I suspect the IS300H will be far more efficent. Unless ofcourse your trip is within the 10-20 mile max EV range of the 330e.
Serial hybrids like the Ampera use pure electric to drive the wheels and the engine is only used as a generator and only drive the wheels in extreme setups. Serial hybrids are usually more efficent as running the combustion engine to charge a battery is more efficent than using it to drive the wheels.
Ultimatly both setups are overly complex comapred to a pure battery EV setups. With battery costs falling most manfactures are no longer developing hybrids of any kind.
Toyota are simply using marketing spin to tap into the EV bandwagon, their hybrid drive system is/was developed as an alternative to diesel and nothing to do with aiming for full electric drivetrains.
gangzoom said:
330e can only by run as a parallel hybrid. The issue with the setup is electric range is tiny and once the electricty is depleted the combustion engine is having to drag around dead weight.
The Toyota setup is using the 'EV' bit all the time to enable a more efficent combustion cycle than what any normal parallel hybrid cannot achieve.
Run a 330e and IS300H both on the same trip I suspect the IS300H will be far more efficent. Unless ofcourse your trip is within the 10-20 mile max EV range of the 330e.
Serial hybrids like the Ampera use pure electric to drive the wheels and the engine is only used as a generator and only drive the wheels in extreme setups. Serial hybrids are usually more efficent as running the combustion engine to charge a battery is more efficent than using it to drive the wheels.
Ultimatly both setups are overly complex comapred to a pure battery EV setups. With battery costs falling most manfactures are no longer developing hybrids of any kind.
Toyota are simply using marketing spin to tap into the EV bandwagon, their hybrid drive system is/was developed as an alternative to diesel and nothing to do with aiming for full electric drivetrains.
I didn't have a 330e. Mine was an earlier model with a 300bhp 3 litre engine. I believe the 330e is a 2 litre and has a bigger battery which can be plug in charged. The Toyota setup is using the 'EV' bit all the time to enable a more efficent combustion cycle than what any normal parallel hybrid cannot achieve.
Run a 330e and IS300H both on the same trip I suspect the IS300H will be far more efficent. Unless ofcourse your trip is within the 10-20 mile max EV range of the 330e.
Serial hybrids like the Ampera use pure electric to drive the wheels and the engine is only used as a generator and only drive the wheels in extreme setups. Serial hybrids are usually more efficent as running the combustion engine to charge a battery is more efficent than using it to drive the wheels.
Ultimatly both setups are overly complex comapred to a pure battery EV setups. With battery costs falling most manfactures are no longer developing hybrids of any kind.
Toyota are simply using marketing spin to tap into the EV bandwagon, their hybrid drive system is/was developed as an alternative to diesel and nothing to do with aiming for full electric drivetrains.
Anyway I don't understand the difference between a 330e and an IS300H. Why is the Lexus so much more efficient?
I have an old Lexus RX 400h hybrid coming up to 10 years old and 140,000. It still works like it did when new and returns around 30mpg in winter dnd 31mph in winter. It has 3.3l v6 and plenty of power.
I also have a 2016 4th gen RX wuth 3.5l v6 and it returns 32mpg upvto 38mpg on a 50 mph steady run. It has the EV button that forces it on to battery only at speeds of around 35 mph or less. The engine does cut in if it needs more power throwing it out of EV mode going back into hybrid running. I do run of about 4 miles on the flat when I use EV, saving some additional petrol on the way home, trying to use electric selectively over petrol. On doing that the battery still had 60-80% charge.
As said above. The system just works. Even the old car has never broken down (touch wood). Whatever the mechanical aspects are, seem very robust as well as refined. For me, both cars also give me the AWD capability to keep me moving when it snows every so often, though they are not proper 4x4s.
I also have a 2016 4th gen RX wuth 3.5l v6 and it returns 32mpg upvto 38mpg on a 50 mph steady run. It has the EV button that forces it on to battery only at speeds of around 35 mph or less. The engine does cut in if it needs more power throwing it out of EV mode going back into hybrid running. I do run of about 4 miles on the flat when I use EV, saving some additional petrol on the way home, trying to use electric selectively over petrol. On doing that the battery still had 60-80% charge.
As said above. The system just works. Even the old car has never broken down (touch wood). Whatever the mechanical aspects are, seem very robust as well as refined. For me, both cars also give me the AWD capability to keep me moving when it snows every so often, though they are not proper 4x4s.
Thing is a neighbour has one of those Lexus hybrids. It backs off his drive lovely and quietly on the battery. Yet he's not 50 yards down the road before the exhaust starts puthering light blue smoke as the thing tries to start the clock cold engine which is instantly on load the second it fires.
Likewise at the end of the day the engine seems to do a lot of stop starts as he's fannying around arranging cars on his drive. Maybe it's a bit borked, I don't know. Clearly they're not car people having driven around in a Qashqai with a near flat tyre for a week till it was pointed out.
Likewise at the end of the day the engine seems to do a lot of stop starts as he's fannying around arranging cars on his drive. Maybe it's a bit borked, I don't know. Clearly they're not car people having driven around in a Qashqai with a near flat tyre for a week till it was pointed out.
That really does not sound right. When the car is cold, it will run the petrol engine from switch on. It needs to heat the cats up and provide cabin heat. If the car is warm on switch on, it will work just on electricity. Never had blue smoke either, so it sounds like it needs some maintenance.
ATM said:
Anyway I don't understand the difference between a 330e and an IS300H. Why is the Lexus so much more efficient?
The combustion engine in Toyota/Lexus setups are simply far more efficent. 40% according to Toyota, which is far better than 20-30% seen in most other combustion cars.https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098429_next-...
The marketing department of Toyota clearly have done a fab job, as many people seem to think their hybrid drivetrains can be compared to proper EVs in any way.
For anyone who need to do regular big trips on M ways for work pure EVs still don't have the range and offer no where near the flexibility of combustion cars. The Toyota hybrid setup however is as good as any diesel for efficency, without the need for turbos/DPFs etc.
For the OP looking at a diesel SUV, the Toyota hybrid equipped cars are a real viable alternative BUT they are not EVs, despite what ever PR rubbish Toyota puts out.
Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 23 December 12:43
I've got the is 300h. If you're looking for a car to woft from a to b with no drama in comfort and style it's fine. As is I'm sure the nx and other self charging.
If you want something that feels like a driver's car.... Don't get get one, especially if it has a CVT gear box. You will just be disappointed.the Lexus range with CVT are designed for ease and comfort.
It's a 2.5lt and with the hybrid system which enables me to get 38 - 40 mpg round town and 55 to 57 on motorway. It's a combined 228 bhp which is still no slouch, just not a driver's gear box.
S.C.H are still worth it but just be mindful for their place and usage!
If you want something that feels like a driver's car.... Don't get get one, especially if it has a CVT gear box. You will just be disappointed.the Lexus range with CVT are designed for ease and comfort.
It's a 2.5lt and with the hybrid system which enables me to get 38 - 40 mpg round town and 55 to 57 on motorway. It's a combined 228 bhp which is still no slouch, just not a driver's gear box.
S.C.H are still worth it but just be mindful for their place and usage!
I know what you mean about not being CVTs not being drivers' cars. Lexus have tried to address thisxwith pseudo gears
on the RX that can be selected with paddles or stick.
The way I look at it though is that most upscale cars these days can pick the gear for you, and you xan overide it. Autos used to be 4 or even 3 speed. Now they are 6 ,7, 8 or even 9. Lexus dispense with all of that with a system that covers all of the ranges and in between. Also, no turbos and hence lag. Power is instant, and when setting of from standstill....very rapid. Add in thatvon snow, you have instant torque with out revs, control on snow and getting off the line is very decent. The one thing they dont do is engine braking. For that it is a case of picking a pseudo gear, but it still does not provide a great deal of resistance.
Not saying a CVT is better than more common autos, but they are flexible, economical, can be overiden, and in my experience totally reliable.
on the RX that can be selected with paddles or stick.
The way I look at it though is that most upscale cars these days can pick the gear for you, and you xan overide it. Autos used to be 4 or even 3 speed. Now they are 6 ,7, 8 or even 9. Lexus dispense with all of that with a system that covers all of the ranges and in between. Also, no turbos and hence lag. Power is instant, and when setting of from standstill....very rapid. Add in thatvon snow, you have instant torque with out revs, control on snow and getting off the line is very decent. The one thing they dont do is engine braking. For that it is a case of picking a pseudo gear, but it still does not provide a great deal of resistance.
Not saying a CVT is better than more common autos, but they are flexible, economical, can be overiden, and in my experience totally reliable.
Lexus put a better gear box in their higher end performance range. Hopefully it will make it to the other cars soon.
I still have fun in sport and manual mode. Instant torque and knocking it down gears still feels like you're dropping down. And getting that engine brake feel.
But like I said... Don't get a CVT if you are looking for a DSG type drive.
I still have fun in sport and manual mode. Instant torque and knocking it down gears still feels like you're dropping down. And getting that engine brake feel.
But like I said... Don't get a CVT if you are looking for a DSG type drive.
Elroy Blue said:
The Lexus NX300h was the obvious choice (I thought) as my commute is 12 miles each way.
I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall.
That mirrors my experience. We'd get 35mpg average on a mix of motorway and stop/start traffic. It's a nice place to sit and while away the hours but if fuel economy is your main aim then diesel would be a better bet.I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall.
Are you looking new? I have just bought a BMW 330e (plug-in hybrid) 2 years old. There are lots for sale ex-lease: they were an excellent company car as they had very low take benefit-in-kind ratings. Get one with folding rear seats. They have ~250 bhp and the performance is excellent, and economy totally dependent on how far you can drive on battery alone. I saw one today around £14000 on autotrader, although with > 60000 miles which is the limit for their battery and hybrid drivetrain warranty (6 years/60000 miles).
Winter, it will do ~15 miles on battery, summer 18-20. You could do your commute with zero petrol if you can charge at work. Even if not, you would be driving on petrol for only about 1/3 of the journey. On long trips they get 40-45MPG on fuel alone.
There is an equivalent Mercedes C 350e which has an estate option if you want more space: I understand the economy and electric range is comparable. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/c-class/908...
For a diesel plug in hybrid, there is a Volvo V60 and I think they now do an XC60 petrol plug in hybrid (£50k+). There is a BMW 530e as well, similar to the 330e but with slightly bigger battery.
After 2 weeks I am thoroughly enjoying it and I've been able to get nearly 50mpg on a combination of trips (mostly local) when my previous cars struggled to break 36mpg (Audi TT 2.0 TFSI, BMW E60 530d). And driving in town on electric is a fantastic experience.
The newer generation of plug in hybrids from BMW and Mercedes will have bigger batteries again but only +30%; but that might allow you to do your commute both ways only charging at home.
Winter, it will do ~15 miles on battery, summer 18-20. You could do your commute with zero petrol if you can charge at work. Even if not, you would be driving on petrol for only about 1/3 of the journey. On long trips they get 40-45MPG on fuel alone.
There is an equivalent Mercedes C 350e which has an estate option if you want more space: I understand the economy and electric range is comparable. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/c-class/908...
For a diesel plug in hybrid, there is a Volvo V60 and I think they now do an XC60 petrol plug in hybrid (£50k+). There is a BMW 530e as well, similar to the 330e but with slightly bigger battery.
After 2 weeks I am thoroughly enjoying it and I've been able to get nearly 50mpg on a combination of trips (mostly local) when my previous cars struggled to break 36mpg (Audi TT 2.0 TFSI, BMW E60 530d). And driving in town on electric is a fantastic experience.
The newer generation of plug in hybrids from BMW and Mercedes will have bigger batteries again but only +30%; but that might allow you to do your commute both ways only charging at home.
fasteddie71 said:
I'm in the same boat, I looked at the Volvo XC60 T8. I was hoping for the T8 engine in the XC40 but they don't do that. It's a much nicer vehicle than the Outlander.
Actually the XC60 looks a good option https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volvo/xc60/97392/vol...>>
The Volvo XC60 T8 Twin Engine is one of the latest arrivals. While the Lexus RX 450h pioneered hybrid drive in the class, Volvo introduced plug-in power with the larger XC90, and now it has been added to the XC60 Mk2.
The T8 Twin Engine uses the same 2.0-litre four cylinder petrol engine and electric motor set-up as the XC90 T8, and the combined power output is a very healthy 400bhp. Where the XC60 differs is that it has a larger battry pack, and Volvo claims the T8 can travel a claimed 28 miles on a full charge before the engine cuts in.
gangzoom said:
Serial hybrids are usually more efficent as running the combustion engine to charge a battery is more efficent than using it to drive the wheels.
If you're doing a long journey, then series hybrids are about the worst of the bunch. Running an engine to charge a battery to then discharge the battery to supply an inverter to drive an electric motor to turn a transmission round is far less efficient steady-state than just mechanically coupling the engine to the transmission.This is why parallel hybrids make more sense for motorway mile munchers than series hybrids, as the ICE can directly drive the transmission in most cases. For what it's worth, the Ampera/Volt isn't a pure series hybrid, just as the Toyota/Lexus stuff isn't pure parallel - they both implement multiple e-motors and complex transmission systems to try to get the best of both worlds.
With my p/x I’m looking at a budget of approx £30k. I got an offer through Carwow for a new nx300 sport for £32k (assuming without a px). Genuinely stumped at which way to jump. I really wanted to give EV a try and it’s a shame BMW never made the 330e in estate form. That would’ve been ideal (I really don’t like Mercedes)
Elroy Blue said:
With my p/x I’m looking at a budget of approx £30k. I got an offer through Carwow for a new nx300 sport for £32k (assuming without a px). Genuinely stumped at which way to jump. I really wanted to give EV a try and it’s a shame BMW never made the 330e in estate form. That would’ve been ideal (I really don’t like Mercedes)
I had the NX prior to getting my Tesla. My commute is not much different from yours and I do the occasional motorway commute. I think you’d find the NX a very pleasant place to be and commuting in slowish moving traffic is perfect for the hybrid set up. The slow speed stop/start nature of commuting means you will get the maximum benefit of the battery and only the motorway journeys will make the battery redundant and a negative in terms of weight. It’s not an EV, and the self driving marketing spin is exactly tha, just spin. They’ve only started using that strap line since ‘proper ‘ EV’s arrived. It is a very good place to start the journey to electric and your fuel bill will fall - mine halved when I went from a Lexus IS250 to the IS300h, prior to getting the NX.
Lexus are great cars (the infotainment system the biggest let down IMO) and I so wish they were in the full EV market. I asked time and time again before jumping ship the Tesla but they were sticking to the hydrogen script.
I have a C350e. On a longer run, circa 250 miles so very much beyond the sadly much smaller than I’d like battler range, it typically returns 50mpg or so. I do confess though, that it has made me a much more economical driver than I used to be. Unless you choose to mess with it, it’ll retain some charge for use in stop/start traffic and to give you a torque boost if needed.
Just short of 300bhp and 600Nm of torque. Not sure what’s wrong with that tbh??
I’d prefer a proper EV though, but currently, the only stuff that appeals is more than I’m prepared to spend.
Just short of 300bhp and 600Nm of torque. Not sure what’s wrong with that tbh??
I’d prefer a proper EV though, but currently, the only stuff that appeals is more than I’m prepared to spend.
My commute is early in the morning or late at night so I don’t get stuck in much traffic. It’s mainly country lanes with around four miles into town. 70% of the trip is national speed limit. I think I’ll probably just switch to petrol and save the EV switch for the car after that one
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