Self charging hybrids. Why?

[Chris-S]

If you’re looking at a lease type arrangement with a 3 or 4 year turnaround on your new cars, then that sounds like a very smart move.

I messed up buying the car I did , when I did. Should have bought another shed to replace the outgoing one and waited a few more years before splurging on my one-time new car purchase. Hey ho, it’s only money.....

[gmaz]

Yeah I despair of this "self charging" stuff. When my sister in law asked me to recommend a hybrid I suggested Outlander PHEV, Golf GT-E etc but they got a Toyota CH-R because it charges itself, you don't need to plug it in, amazing eh?

[Chestrockwell]

My mum has a Hybrid RAV4 and I despised the car, driving it and everything about it but then I was coming out of a 3.0 diesel BMW.

I had to borrow it for a day last week and I never understood the car or how it works, I’m not saying I expected it to drive like a hot hatch but I hated the shocking throttle response, the wheel spin (it’s a 2WD), the weird brake pedal spongelike feeling that goes from feeling soft to heavy and the lack of engine braking, you want to slow down to a halt and it just feels weird.

Anyways after a day of driving it, I finally understood it and it became a challenge to use it on electric only and to watch the battery get charged in the diagram in by the speedo. It encouraged me to drive economically, I’d get annoyed when I see the limit rise from 30 to 40.

It’s actually a really good car, the only thing it needs is to be a tiny bit lower, I’ve seen diesel
models about and they look so much better and will no doubt handle better. It’s actually very quick as well, I also figured out the logic behind the ‘tip tronic’ and it creates these artificial gears that keep it at a very high RPM, it’s quick for what it is, however it’s the last thing I think of doing as the engine is literally screaming .

My mums long term average is 40mpg which is exactly the same as my sisters 2007 2.2 diesel Honda CRV but I don’t think you should approach a hybrid with MPG in mind. Not in the traditional sense of comparing it with an equivalent diesel as long term costs will be very different. This thread has been very useful for me to understand how it all works, the differences etc so I thank everyone for giving their insight.

As I got back into my BMW, started it up and done a 4 mile drive, half of which was in traffic, my car literally felt ancient, performance/interior/looks aside, it really did feel very old and I used to think the 3.0 6 was pretty quiet for a diesel. I wish a premium car like my car existed that offered the same performance and dynamics albeit in hybrid form, but then it would have to be a CVT which is the main put off for me. I’ve seen a GS300h that uses the same 2.5 as the rav and I do wonder how one makes progress in a car with that weight and size and a 4 pot screaming at god knows what RPM in a nice respectable Lexus.

Conclusion? In a hypothetical scenario, Hybrids are a good idea if you’re married, you buy your wife one that you use occasionally or maybe when it’s snowing and your M4 is useless

With regards to the poster saying his neighbours Lexus being bad or something, my neighbour actually has an RX400h and I hear it in the mornings, the engine turns on but it’s idling and they drive off using electricity, never any smoke.

Edited by Chestrockwell on Monday 24th December 20:53

[gangzoom]

ash73 said:

How much does the battery in a hybrid weigh? Can you remove it and just run the car on petrol, to get the same congestion charge / VED benefits without lugging the dead weight around?

No cannot remove it, soon your need a full EV to be congestion charge exempt anyways.

[raspy]

Chestrockwell said:

My mum has a Hybrid RAV4 and I despised the car, driving it and everything about it but then I was coming out of a 3.0 diesel BMW.

As I got back into my BMW, started it up and done a 4 mile drive, half of which was in traffic, my car literally felt ancient, performance/interior/looks aside, it really did feel very old and I used to think the 3.0 6 was pretty quiet for a diesel. I wish a premium car like my car existed that offered the same performance and dynamics albeit in hybrid form, but then it would have to be a CVT which is the main put off for me.

Edited by Chestrockwell on Monday 24th December 20:53

You mean like a BMW 330e? It doesn't have a CVT.

[Chestrockwell]

raspy said:

Chestrockwell said:

My mum has a Hybrid RAV4 and I despised the car, driving it and everything about it but then I was coming out of a 3.0 diesel BMW.

As I got back into my BMW, started it up and done a 4 mile drive, half of which was in traffic, my car literally felt ancient, performance/interior/looks aside, it really did feel very old and I used to think the 3.0 6 was pretty quiet for a diesel. I wish a premium car like my car existed that offered the same performance and dynamics albeit in hybrid form, but then it would have to be a CVT which is the main put off for me.

Edited by Chestrockwell on Monday 24th December 20:53

You mean like a BMW 330e? It doesn't have a CVT.

Yes but it’s essentially a 320i with a battery, very uninspiring base and not designed to be a hybrid from the start. Perhaps the G20 3 will appeal should they make a proper one.

[TUS373]

Cannot remove the traction batteries from a hybrid. There is no starter motor for the engine, instead it magically starts, but don't ask me how! It makes for a very smooth experience, especially compared to stop-start diesels. The transition between electric and ICE is barely detectable whilst the car is in motion, and often the systems run in tandem (in my Lexus).

[ooid]

gangzoom said:

Add to that the Lexus costs £10/year road tax, good residuals,zero reliability worries at all, and fuel costs of sub £100/month due to low milleage/good efficency financially keeping the Lexus is a no brainer.

IF Lexus did make an EV however I would get one without a second thought, and probably one of the few brands I would swap out of the Tesla for. For reliability Lexus is untouchable, the engine bay of our IS still looks brand new after nearly 4 years!!!

Couldn't agree more. Been diriving an IS250 for a while now, mainly got it for the wifey and daily activities but now looking to get another one for myself, most probably RX 400H. They seem to me perfect combo for London traffic for start/stop, and great smooth engine for longer journeys.

[FWIW]

I have a V60 twin engine hybrid as a company car. I never plug it in because the company doesn’t pay my electricity bill. I get around 40mpg (derv).

The *only* benefit is low BIK.

I see zero point in having a hybrid unless it’s a company car.

[w4nnabe]

ash73 said:

How much does the battery in a hybrid weigh? Can you remove it and just run the car on petrol, to get the same congestion charge / VED benefits without lugging the dead weight around?

Ash, if you want to cheat the system, just change the number plates to look like a similar model/colour PHEV and hope they pay their tax and insurance. Good luck with your conscience though.

[w4nnabe]

Chestrockwell said:

raspy said:

Chestrockwell said:

My mum has a Hybrid RAV4 and I despised the car, driving it and everything about it but then I was coming out of a 3.0 diesel BMW.

As I got back into my BMW, started it up and done a 4 mile drive, half of which was in traffic, my car literally felt ancient, performance/interior/looks aside, it really did feel very old and I used to think the 3.0 6 was pretty quiet for a diesel. I wish a premium car like my car existed that offered the same performance and dynamics albeit in hybrid form, but then it would have to be a CVT which is the main put off for me.

Edited by Chestrockwell on Monday 24th December 20:53

You mean like a BMW 330e? It doesn't have a CVT.

Yes but it’s essentially a 320i with a battery, very uninspiring base and not designed to be a hybrid from the start. Perhaps the G20 3 will appeal should they make a proper one.

I went from a BMW E60 530D (which I loved, kept for 12 years) via an Audi TT (mistake, only owned for 6 months) to a 2 year old BMW 330e. I really like it - it feels like a proper car (reminiscent although the 530D, although I find it (me) a bit slow on the turn in to corners). There is also a BMW 530e which is worth a look.

I'm not convinced by automatic gearboxes yet: the BMW has 8 speed ZF paddle shift. Not perfect (a bit of a lag to change, and it redlines unnecessarily on kickdown) although I understand it can be recoded to be sharper. Why would you want a CVT?

Give one of the BMWs a try; I think you might like it, even compared to the x30.

[dmsims]

FWIW said:

I have a V60 twin engine hybrid as a company car. I never plug it in because the company doesn’t pay my electricity bill. I get around 40mpg (derv).

The *only* benefit is low BIK.

I see zero point in having a hybrid unless it’s a company car.

So your company is not interested in cost saving / being greener ?

Must be very unique!

[chrisgeary]

FWIW said:

I see zero point in having a hybrid unless it’s a company car.

As a private owner of one, I like the smooth transmission, the quiet engine (mostly), the diesel like mpg but without the emissions, the battery running in town, the relaxing serene drive, zero tax... I could go on.

[rxe]

chrisgeary said:

As a private owner of one, I like the smooth transmission, the quiet engine (mostly), the diesel like mpg but without the emissions, the battery running in town, the relaxing serene drive, zero tax... I could go on.

This is the whole point.

You can use one of these to do silly short urban journeys and still get 40 mpg. You can sit in traffic on the Euston Road and not start the engine once - if you’re worried about urban air quality, this is a good thing.

Basically, for everyone banging on about urban air quality, these would solve 90% of the problem with zero infrastructure investment, and everyone could swap to one of these tomorrow.

Buying one and expecting it to do magic MPG on the motorway is silly, it obeys the laws of physics like everything else does.

They’re also a stepping stone to plug in hybrids - make the battery a little bigger, add a socket on the side and you’ve covered a large amount of people’s journeys. They still have the engine for long distance.

[ajprice]

'Self charging' is a rebrand job for the basic hybrid that's been around for 20 years with the Prius and Insight. Things have moved on with the plug ins and pure EV cars, and it's still an option to get good mpg on a city car with a plain old hybrid. They've replaced a few small diesel cars on the road do they can't be all bad .

[kurokawa]

FWIW said:

I have a V60 twin engine hybrid as a company car. I never plug it in because the company doesn’t pay my electricity bill. I get around 40mpg (derv).

The *only* benefit is low BIK.

I see zero point in having a hybrid unless it’s a company car.

Never own one nor have one as company car
but did rent a hybrid for 2 weeks, and it is quite good in town driving
may not be a good choice if you do alot of motorway or want something dynamic
but it would be great choice for someone use their car mostly for driving kid to school or grocery, without worrying about the range of an pure EV

[DJP31]

dmsims said:

FWIW said:

I have a V60 twin engine hybrid as a company car. I never plug it in because the company doesn’t pay my electricity bill. I get around 40mpg (derv).

The *only* benefit is low BIK.

I see zero point in having a hybrid unless it’s a company car.

So your company is not interested in cost saving / being greener ?

Must be very unique!

This is why the Gov have scrapped the EV allowance on these types of cars. They’ve largely been bought by people looking solely at BIK rates, exactly as posted here. It’s a shame for the few people that bought them for genuine “green” reasons but can’t blame the company car driver whose just looking for min tax impact.

[Otispunkmeyer]

FiF said:

Thing is a neighbour has one of those Lexus hybrids. It backs off his drive lovely and quietly on the battery. Yet he's not 50 yards down the road before the exhaust starts puthering light blue smoke as the thing tries to start the clock cold engine which is instantly on load the second it fires.

Likewise at the end of the day the engine seems to do a lot of stop starts as he's fannying around arranging cars on his drive. Maybe it's a bit borked, I don't know. Clearly they're not car people having driven around in a Qashqai with a near flat tyre for a week till it was pointed out.

The engines on Toyota/Lexus hybrids do start up quick (the gains are to be had using the EV mode at the end of the trip). When they fire on the first time though they basically do a high idle with a small load variation to get warm (warm up cycle at 1300rpm ). At that point the battery is still powering the wheels, the generator unit is sending some power as well but the engine won't drive the wheels unless you really step on it.

I have a Prius and I'm an automotive engineer. It's a really nicely done system. It's not a CVT it's a Power Split Device. Google it. It's quite elegant,.simple and reliable. And I can't argue with 55mpg from a petrol, automatic with decent space. It's costing me 10p a mile.

Imo, they're excellent pieces of engineering... remembering that the basic setup appeared in the mid 90s just as Europe was piling into diesel. The stop starting however doesn't do a lot for NOx emissions mind!

But purely a car bought with logic. It's not a car you buy for enjoyment. It's a tool, that is cheap to run and easy to use. Nothing more.

[FWIW]

dmsims said:

So your company is not interested in cost saving / being greener ?

Must be very unique!

Indeed. They are complete morons. You don’t know the half of it... The accountant had a meltdown when I plugged it in at the office when I first got it.

New Year...New job

[FWIW]

DJP31 said:

This is why the Gov have scrapped the EV allowance on these types of cars. They’ve largely been bought by people looking solely at BIK rates, exactly as posted here. It’s a shame for the few people that bought them for genuine “green” reasons but can’t blame the company car driver whose just looking for min tax impact.

There are hardly any genuine green benefits the way I see it...unless you only do 20 or so miles a day.