Electric cars - range when thrashed
Discussion
I was thinking that I have rarely ever seen a Tesla being driven fast, despite them being quite quick. Mostly I see them bimbling along at 60 on the motorway, I guess to conserve range.
If the largest EV batteries are 100KWh, and a fast EV can have a motor capable of well over 300KW..... that gives a flat out run time of <20 minutes.
Of course, you won't be going anywhere near full power all the time.
So, for anyone who does own a fast EV... what is the range like when you give it a good thrash?
With petrol cars you can easily get down to under 1/3 of the normal mpg when driving hard. Is it particularly hard to get a 300 mile range EV to go flat in under 100 miles?
If the largest EV batteries are 100KWh, and a fast EV can have a motor capable of well over 300KW..... that gives a flat out run time of <20 minutes.
Of course, you won't be going anywhere near full power all the time.
So, for anyone who does own a fast EV... what is the range like when you give it a good thrash?
With petrol cars you can easily get down to under 1/3 of the normal mpg when driving hard. Is it particularly hard to get a 300 mile range EV to go flat in under 100 miles?
I watched a video a while ago about a guy who built an electric Evora for time-attack type racing. From vague memory, it would do around 100-150 miles on a charge on the road; I think about three or four laps of the circuit they were testing it on (can't remember which circuit it was, somewhere in the states). So probably about a 90% drop in range.
I seem to remember he used a Tesla Model-S motor and about one and a half Chevy Volt batteries.
I suppose that's probably about the same drop-off you'd get in an internal combustion powered car when racing. You obviously can't push a car anywhere near that hard on the public road.
I seem to remember he used a Tesla Model-S motor and about one and a half Chevy Volt batteries.
I suppose that's probably about the same drop-off you'd get in an internal combustion powered car when racing. You obviously can't push a car anywhere near that hard on the public road.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 22 January 16:28
We have a Model X P100DL. I drive briskly but not full thrash all the time as you can't do that in a 2.5 ton bus without being killed. It tends to do real world 200 on a 90% charge. Ours lives in ludicrous mode and certainly, if I'm in the mood every throttle press will be fairly hard, but sensible limits apply and it doesn't corner the way you'd necessarily want, so again you've got to wind it down.
Every time you brake or lift the regen harvests energy, so even at a thrash, it's not as bad as you'd initially think.
I'd be amazed if on a track you could get it down to two figures, but I haven't tracked it so this could well be wrong.
Every time you brake or lift the regen harvests energy, so even at a thrash, it's not as bad as you'd initially think.
I'd be amazed if on a track you could get it down to two figures, but I haven't tracked it so this could well be wrong.
Out of curiosity I asked for a Leaf as a loan car while my Gtr was in for a service, that made them laugh at least 
They charged it ready for my collection.
The journey home from Bristol is around 30 miles. Naturally I wanted to test its acceleration, overtaking capabilities and top speed. I didn't quite make it home though. Just managed to get to Sedgemoor services (jnct 22) to stick it on a recharge, so it managed about 25 miles. The expensive bit was Costa coffee while I was waiting
They charged it ready for my collection.The journey home from Bristol is around 30 miles. Naturally I wanted to test its acceleration, overtaking capabilities and top speed. I didn't quite make it home though. Just managed to get to Sedgemoor services (jnct 22) to stick it on a recharge, so it managed about 25 miles. The expensive bit was Costa coffee while I was waiting
deeps said:
Out of curiosity i asked for a Leaf as a loan car while my Gtr was in for a service, that made them laugh at least They charged it ready for my collection.
The journey home from Bristol is around 30 miles. Naturally I wanted to test its acceleration, overtaking capabilities and top speed. I didn't quite make it home though. Just managed to get to Sedgemoor services (jnct 22) to stick it on a recharge, so it managed about 25 miles. The expensive bit was Costa coffee while I was waiting ;laugh:
Not sure how you managed that, TBH, unless it was nothing but 0-90-0 dashes, or it was already broken. They charged it ready for my collection.The journey home from Bristol is around 30 miles. Naturally I wanted to test its acceleration, overtaking capabilities and top speed. I didn't quite make it home though. Just managed to get to Sedgemoor services (jnct 22) to stick it on a recharge, so it managed about 25 miles. The expensive bit was Costa coffee while I was waiting ;laugh:
CJ1 said:
Tesla Hosted a track day at Goodwood once, every 15 minutes/ 1 Session the cars would have to be recharged and it took about an Hour before they were out again on track again. To be fair though, that was about 5 years ago when they were still on the Original Roadster.
Do you have any links for that? 5th gear did a review/range test of the original Roadster including a track session and didn't have a problem with range IIRC. and it took about an Hour before they were out again on track again. To be fair though, that was about 5 years ago when they were still on the Original Roadster. Obviously you will use more energy when you accelerate harder but regen helps.
spookly said:
I was thinking that I have rarely ever seen a Tesla being driven fast, despite them being quite quick. Mostly I see them bimbling along at 60 on the motorway, I guess to conserve range.
If the largest EV batteries are 100KWh, and a fast EV can have a motor capable of well over 300KW..... that gives a flat out run time of <20 minutes.
Of course, you won't be going anywhere near full power all the time.
So, for anyone who does own a fast EV... what is the range like when you give it a good thrash?
With petrol cars you can easily get down to under 1/3 of the normal mpg when driving hard. Is it particularly hard to get a 300 mile range EV to go flat in under 100 miles?
The issue doesn't seem to be battery range per se, but keeping the whole thing cool as the batteries heat up when being discharged at a higher than normal rateIf the largest EV batteries are 100KWh, and a fast EV can have a motor capable of well over 300KW..... that gives a flat out run time of <20 minutes.
Of course, you won't be going anywhere near full power all the time.
So, for anyone who does own a fast EV... what is the range like when you give it a good thrash?
With petrol cars you can easily get down to under 1/3 of the normal mpg when driving hard. Is it particularly hard to get a 300 mile range EV to go flat in under 100 miles?
Robb Holland and tuner Iain Litchfield took a Model S around the 'ring and it didn't manage to complete the 14 miles at track pace.
"“The lap itself was around 10 minutes Bridge to Gantry (in heavy traffic) but unfortunately the car went into a reduced power mode about 3 minutes in due to excess battery heat (at least, that’s my guess).”
“However, before it did it was able to keep a GT3 RS going full chat, within shouting distance (at the 2:00 mark) far longer than any 4,700lb sedan has a right to.”
“I think without the reduced power output and traffic, a B-T-G lap under nine minutes is possible. According to the Bridge To Gantry site, that would put it in the company of some really quick hot hatches.”"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJT4OtufDss
Thanks for the responses :-)
EVs are just about getting to the point where their claimed range would be good enough for my regular use. But, I'm concerned that I'd not get anywhere near the claimed range. I do have a fairly heavy foot, and never get anywhere near the claimed mpg on petrol or diesel cars either.... hence my concern as to whether I'd actually be able to complete a journey. If people are seeing a 40% drop in range in winter then that's even more concerning.
I'd want a all year range of at least 300 miles, or would accept a smaller range if it could be recharged *very* fast.
EVs are just about getting to the point where their claimed range would be good enough for my regular use. But, I'm concerned that I'd not get anywhere near the claimed range. I do have a fairly heavy foot, and never get anywhere near the claimed mpg on petrol or diesel cars either.... hence my concern as to whether I'd actually be able to complete a journey. If people are seeing a 40% drop in range in winter then that's even more concerning.
I'd want a all year range of at least 300 miles, or would accept a smaller range if it could be recharged *very* fast.
I experimented with a popular EV last summer. (I have to be a bit careful about what I say - it may be incriminatory...).
Driving it on a ~85 mile trip cross-country journey at a 'very progressive' pace with lots of pedal-to-the-metal only knocked about 20% off the suggested range on the display. I was surprised, as I was actually setting a very good average speed.
Conversely, driving the thing like Miss Daisy yielded about 10% more than the display suggested on another trip.
Driving it on a ~85 mile trip cross-country journey at a 'very progressive' pace with lots of pedal-to-the-metal only knocked about 20% off the suggested range on the display. I was surprised, as I was actually setting a very good average speed.
Conversely, driving the thing like Miss Daisy yielded about 10% more than the display suggested on another trip.
Broadly speaking two things affect range in any vehicle
1) the average road load (which broadly goes up with the square of the average speed)
and
2) How efficiently the car converts its energy store into motion.
Just like an ICE vehicle, accelerating hard is less efficient than accelerating gently, but unlike an ICE, EVs can regen and get back around 65% of the energy they use to accelerate in the first place, as long as you don't use the friction brakes. So, if drive hard but make sure you anticipate and only regen then the reduction in range is mostly do do with simply travelling at a higher average speed, and hence a higher average road load!
Take my i3. My yearly average (consumption over one whole year) is pretty much exactly 4 miles per kW.hr on my commute, which has an average speed of 36 mph (it's 16 miles of B road, but with 30mph villages and several (mostly pointless) 40mph limits, and even more muppets who can't get over 40 even on the long straight 60mph bits.....)
4.30am one morning when it was completely empty I drove the same route as fast as the i3 can go in the 60mph limits ( 92mph speed limiter, but obeyed the 30's and did about 50 in the 40's) and as i didn't brake, only used regen, it managed a 55 mph average speed and consumed 3.3 miles per kW.hr. Realistically, in the uk, on that road, that's as bad as it gets. I can do the trip faster in my other (much more powerful car) but that means being WELL into 3 figures in the 60mph zones and seriously braking for the turns.
If however, you use the friction brakes, which means you can brake a lot later into the bends, then the consumption, just like for an ICE plumets, because suddenly you are doing a lot more un-recoverable work. The lowest i've ever managed is around 2.5 miles per kW.hr, but it's actually really quite difficult to drive for any length of time like that on the public roads where i live (if you live in scotland, then you probably can, in crowded Bucks, you can't....)
it's also worth noting that plenty of high performance ICE cars also can drain a full tank in something like 25 mins. A fully wrung out M3 for example will juuust manage two full flying laps of the N'ring, and a slow cool down lap, before the light comes on!
1) the average road load (which broadly goes up with the square of the average speed)
and
2) How efficiently the car converts its energy store into motion.
Just like an ICE vehicle, accelerating hard is less efficient than accelerating gently, but unlike an ICE, EVs can regen and get back around 65% of the energy they use to accelerate in the first place, as long as you don't use the friction brakes. So, if drive hard but make sure you anticipate and only regen then the reduction in range is mostly do do with simply travelling at a higher average speed, and hence a higher average road load!
Take my i3. My yearly average (consumption over one whole year) is pretty much exactly 4 miles per kW.hr on my commute, which has an average speed of 36 mph (it's 16 miles of B road, but with 30mph villages and several (mostly pointless) 40mph limits, and even more muppets who can't get over 40 even on the long straight 60mph bits.....)
4.30am one morning when it was completely empty I drove the same route as fast as the i3 can go in the 60mph limits ( 92mph speed limiter, but obeyed the 30's and did about 50 in the 40's) and as i didn't brake, only used regen, it managed a 55 mph average speed and consumed 3.3 miles per kW.hr. Realistically, in the uk, on that road, that's as bad as it gets. I can do the trip faster in my other (much more powerful car) but that means being WELL into 3 figures in the 60mph zones and seriously braking for the turns.
If however, you use the friction brakes, which means you can brake a lot later into the bends, then the consumption, just like for an ICE plumets, because suddenly you are doing a lot more un-recoverable work. The lowest i've ever managed is around 2.5 miles per kW.hr, but it's actually really quite difficult to drive for any length of time like that on the public roads where i live (if you live in scotland, then you probably can, in crowded Bucks, you can't....)
it's also worth noting that plenty of high performance ICE cars also can drain a full tank in something like 25 mins. A fully wrung out M3 for example will juuust manage two full flying laps of the N'ring, and a slow cool down lap, before the light comes on!
CJ1 said:
Tesla Hosted a track day at Goodwood once, every 15 minutes/ 1 Session the cars would have to be recharged and it took about an Hour before they were out again on track again. To be fair though, that was about 5 years ago when they were still on the Original Roadster.
Yet here is Tiff Needel driving one on a 150 mile trip (vs 200mile range) including some track time at Goodwood, and a spirited drive home, all in performance mode. and it took about an Hour before they were out again on track again. To be fair though, that was about 5 years ago when they were still on the Original Roadster. https://youtu.be/T9qaiVE3fwc
Still has 8 miles left at the end.
deeps said:
Out of curiosity I asked for a Leaf as a loan car while my Gtr was in for a service, that made them laugh at least They charged it ready for my collection.
The journey home from Bristol is around 30 miles. Naturally I wanted to test its acceleration, overtaking capabilities and top speed. I didn't quite make it home though. Just managed to get to Sedgemoor services (jnct 22) to stick it on a recharge, so it managed about 25 miles. The expensive bit was Costa coffee while I was waiting
/thathappened They charged it ready for my collection.The journey home from Bristol is around 30 miles. Naturally I wanted to test its acceleration, overtaking capabilities and top speed. I didn't quite make it home though. Just managed to get to Sedgemoor services (jnct 22) to stick it on a recharge, so it managed about 25 miles. The expensive bit was Costa coffee while I was waiting
What type of Leaf was this?
I've done what you described in the night many times (Newcastle to Durham on the A1) on a 2016 Leaf and there is no way you only got old 25 miles out of it, it will go way further at full throttle (90mph) on a 100% charge.
Edited by jjwilde on Tuesday 22 January 19:17
Edited by jjwilde on Tuesday 22 January 19:19
Max_Torque said:
Just like an ICE vehicle, accelerating hard is less efficient than accelerating gently, but unlike an ICE, EVs can regen and get back around 65% of the energy they use to accelerate in the first place, as long as you don't use the friction brakes. So, if drive hard but make sure you anticipate and only regen then the reduction in range is mostly do do with simply travelling at a higher average speed, and hence a higher average road load!
That's slightly misleading though, because electric motors can operate at pretty much maximum efficiency most of the time where internal combustion engines get significantly more efficient as load increases. Or to put it another way, any car has roughly twice the drag at 70 as at 50, but an internal combustion engine might be 10% efficient at 50 and 15% efficient at 70 so the difference in consumption per unit distance is only about a third; an EV which is running at 90% efficiency in both cases is going to use twice as much energy per unit distance at 70 as it does at 50.
jjwilde said:
deeps said:
Out of curiosity I asked for a Leaf as a loan car while my Gtr was in for a service, that made them laugh at least They charged it ready for my collection.
The journey home from Bristol is around 30 miles. Naturally I wanted to test its acceleration, overtaking capabilities and top speed. I didn't quite make it home though. Just managed to get to Sedgemoor services (jnct 22) to stick it on a recharge, so it managed about 25 miles. The expensive bit was Costa coffee while I was waiting
/thathappened They charged it ready for my collection.The journey home from Bristol is around 30 miles. Naturally I wanted to test its acceleration, overtaking capabilities and top speed. I didn't quite make it home though. Just managed to get to Sedgemoor services (jnct 22) to stick it on a recharge, so it managed about 25 miles. The expensive bit was Costa coffee while I was waiting
What type of Leaf was this?
I've done what you described in the night many times (Newcastle to Durham on the A1) on a 2016 Leaf and there is no way you only got old 25 miles out of it, it will go way further at full throttle (90mph) on a 100% charge.
Edited by jjwilde on Tuesday 22 January 19:17
Edited by jjwilde on Tuesday 22 January 19:19
Drop that speed to 60mph and 60 miles is pretty much a ballpark figure. Same speed but without heater/lights/wipers and you're looking at 70 miles range.
On a nice flat A Road though, around 50mph, on a warm day, with no heater/lights/wipers I'd say 90 miles was a realistic figure.
What I do think though is that Nissan's software is rigged, and there is no doubt in my mind that the range drops more quickly the lower the battery level gets. Sounds weird I know, but I don't believe I have ever done a return trip where the percentage of battery used coming back was less than the percentage used going out.
The rule I work with is that I'd want 60% charge showing when I reach my destination to be certain I can reach home without a recharge.
spookly said:
Thanks for the responses :-)
EVs are just about getting to the point where their claimed range would be good enough for my regular use. But, I'm concerned that I'd not get anywhere near the claimed range. I do have a fairly heavy foot, and never get anywhere near the claimed mpg on petrol or diesel cars either.... hence my concern as to whether I'd actually be able to complete a journey. If people are seeing a 40% drop in range in winter then that's even more concerning.
I'd want a all year range of at least 300 miles, or would accept a smaller range if it could be recharged *very* fast.
The only car that could get anywhere remotely close to your 300 miles would be a Tesla. My question would be what’s your driving pattern that requires 300 miles before refuelling, and what do you mean by recharged ‘very’ fast?EVs are just about getting to the point where their claimed range would be good enough for my regular use. But, I'm concerned that I'd not get anywhere near the claimed range. I do have a fairly heavy foot, and never get anywhere near the claimed mpg on petrol or diesel cars either.... hence my concern as to whether I'd actually be able to complete a journey. If people are seeing a 40% drop in range in winter then that's even more concerning.
I'd want a all year range of at least 300 miles, or would accept a smaller range if it could be recharged *very* fast.
In temperatures above 10 degrees at motorway speeds my Tesla S75D will do 250 miles. In the winter that would reduce by about 20%. In either scenario my bladder gives out well before the battery, and a break to have a leak and grab a coffee is enough to replenish the battery more than enough to outlast my bladder again. Comfortably another 125/150 miles in that time.
In town, i.e. my normal commute and pottering around, say 50 miles max per day would see energy consumption nigh on double between summer and winter. A short journey followed by a break, followed by another short journey in low temperatures is a killer for range.
Today, for example, I have driven 21 miles over 6 drives. I started this morning on 80% and the car is now on 57%. My consumption has been 500Wh/m, that’s nearly twice what I’d achieve on a motorway run in the summer. However, the day is finished long before my short drives would exhaust the battery, and the car is now happily plugged in ready for Economy 7 to kick in, and tomorrow I’ll be back at 80% for Groundhog Day.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff