Discussion
Phil. said:
Have you visited Africa or another emerging economy with little infrastructure? I have spent time in Nigeria and Cameroon. No way will they be using EV’s on any scale in your lifetime.
I think you're wrong and they will be using EV scooters charged via solar within 10 years on a massive scale. See India also.98elise said:
Hydrogen has so many flaws it's laughable....
It's very inefficient to produce
It has to be stored at massive pressures
It leaks out of everything
It needs an entirely new infrastructure
The tanks only last about 10-12 years
The drivetrain is too expensive to be commercially viable
Fuel cells are not suited to sudden changes in demand (ie acceleration)
It's not that quick to fill up.
There is a reason every manufacturer other then Toyota are heading towards BEV. Toyota will switch within a few years.
Similar to batteries then, expensive to produce, difficult to store safely in cars, needs new infrastructure, only last maybe 10-12yrs before degrading, not that quick to fill up It's very inefficient to produce
It has to be stored at massive pressures
It leaks out of everything
It needs an entirely new infrastructure
The tanks only last about 10-12 years
The drivetrain is too expensive to be commercially viable
Fuel cells are not suited to sudden changes in demand (ie acceleration)
It's not that quick to fill up.
There is a reason every manufacturer other then Toyota are heading towards BEV. Toyota will switch within a few years.
Whether hydrogen is the future I don't know, however I can't see the long term (20+yrs) future as building lots of heavy batteries for cars that are (currently) not really recyclable. I see BEV's as a stepping stone away from ICE, while other better technologies are developed and not the solution.
WestyCarl said:
Whether hydrogen is the future I don't know, however I can't see the long term (20+yrs) future as building lots of heavy batteries for cars that are (currently) not really recyclable. I see BEV's as a stepping stone away from ICE, while other better technologies are developed and not the solution.
The ongoing discussion about vehicle battery recycling is blown out of proportion.Firstly, our ability to manage batteries and prolong their life has grown massively over the years. But also, using batteries in cars is one of the more stressful uses for their lifecycle (potentially high charge and discharge, variable weather conditions, desire to rapid charge).
But batteries that are no longer useful in cars have a second Life opportunity in anything from grid-level balancing, domestic storage and emergency power supplies.
The issue with re-use of batteries at this time is that the labour of performing the necessary safety and performance checks of a second-life cell far outweighs the second hand value.
Witchfinder said:
Here's why hydrogen is a terrible idea
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel...
Agree at the moment, but they are probably in the Sinclair C5 BEV stage of development https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel...
Batteries (in not just cars) have had years of development.Even one of the final paragraphs in your article admits to this
"It is important to note that, while the data shared in the video makes it clear that today, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles have far more efficiency losses than battery electric vehicles and cost more to fill up than current gasoline vehicles, they are also several years behind battery electric vehicles in terms of innovation. Given sufficient time and focus on optimizing the total system efficiency, these zero-emission vehicles could be what our kids or grandkids drive around in … or, rather, get driven around in by the inevitably autonomous pilots in our future."
WestyCarl said:
Witchfinder said:
Here's why hydrogen is a terrible idea
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel...
Agree at the moment, but they are probably in the Sinclair C5 BEV stage of development https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel...
Batteries (in not just cars) have had years of development.Even one of the final paragraphs in your article admits to this
"It is important to note that, while the data shared in the video makes it clear that today, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles have far more efficiency losses than battery electric vehicles and cost more to fill up than current gasoline vehicles, they are also several years behind battery electric vehicles in terms of innovation. Given sufficient time and focus on optimizing the total system efficiency, these zero-emission vehicles could be what our kids or grandkids drive around in … or, rather, get driven around in by the inevitably autonomous pilots in our future."
a suitably vague and unsubstantiated statement. Source?It all feels a bit like CD taking over from Vinyl and an argument over mini disk v digital tape and along comes streaming and wipes them all away in what, 15 years?
Meanwhile there's a hard core support for the vinyl just like there will be for ICE
We'll look back on these days and laugh at the idea of carrying over 1000kg of batteries around with us.
I just wish I knew what the streaming equivalent was for cars as thats where to put your money.
Meanwhile there's a hard core support for the vinyl just like there will be for ICE
We'll look back on these days and laugh at the idea of carrying over 1000kg of batteries around with us.
I just wish I knew what the streaming equivalent was for cars as thats where to put your money.
Heres Johnny said:
It all feels a bit like CD taking over from Vinyl and an argument over mini disk v digital tape and along comes streaming and wipes them all away in what, 15 years?
Meanwhile there's a hard core support for the vinyl just like there will be for ICE
We'll look back on these days and laugh at the idea of carrying over 1000kg of batteries around with us.
I just wish I knew what the streaming equivalent was for cars as thats where to put your money.
I think that’s very true. The Lithium Ion battery is a stop gap. It’s hugely expensive, not environmental, extremely heavy, very big and design restrictive and potentially rather dangerous. In the cold, hard light of day it’s only true redeeming feature is that it’s not as sMeanwhile there's a hard core support for the vinyl just like there will be for ICE
We'll look back on these days and laugh at the idea of carrying over 1000kg of batteries around with us.
I just wish I knew what the streaming equivalent was for cars as thats where to put your money.
t as other batteries. I suspect that the electric motor is likely to continue replacing ICE but one has to imagine that in all likelihood something will appear in the next 20 years that makes the world rush away overnight from using Li batteries in cars.
If it doesn’t then what we will almost certainly see is ICE returning in some form to cater for the high volume, lowest end of the market.
Witchfinder said:
If BEV batteries get replaced by anything, it'll be by other, lighter, more energy dense batteries.
Define "Battery"One definition (cambridge) is "a device that produces electricity to provide power for radios, cars, etc" sometimes the word "cell" is included, so by that regard a fuel cell is a battery when installed in a car.
Witchfinder said:
DonkeyApple said:
As opposed to bananas? 
As opposed to hydrogen, which is effectively a battery, just a really crap one.The car world is never going to be powered predominantly by Li batteries and it will be interesting to see what comes along to make them totally redundant as a store of electricity and how long that takes.
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