Hydrogen refueling is here

[Evanivitch]

Dont like rolls said:

EV's are still massively limiting unless you have a 2nd car (which a lot of EV owners have)

So are sports cars, city cars, huge cars, vans, motorbikes, convertibles, but they seem to sell well?

[Dont like rolls]

otolith said:

I have neither an electric car, nor experience of these sudden NEEDS. Is this like people who run a survivalist spec off-roader JUST IN CASE? Do you keep your bug-out bag in it?

It would seem that my life is very much more variable than yours yet on that basis you throw some stupid childlike adhom, depressing.

[Dont like rolls]

Evanivitch said:

So are sports cars, city cars, huge cars, vans, motorbikes, convertibles, but they seem to sell well?

I did not say that was a bad thing or unique, it is just the way it is for many examples.

[otolith]

Dont like rolls said:

otolith said:

I have neither an electric car, nor experience of these sudden NEEDS. Is this like people who run a survivalist spec off-roader JUST IN CASE? Do you keep your bug-out bag in it?

It would seem that my life is very much more variable than yours yet on that basis you throw some stupid childlike adhom, depressing.

Neither my lifestyle nor yours is going to determine overall uptake, but your first world problem NEEDS seem unlikely to be even typical of first world users.

Normal people don't suddenly NEED to drive hundreds of miles, certainly not regularly enough for it to be a reason to give themselves a daily inconvenience.

[Dave Hedgehog]

coetzeeh said:

The fact that Germany and Japan are investing materially into the development of the technology suggests Hydrogen will play a material part in transportation's future - both nations have first class track records for getting technology right.

there is huge pressure from the oil industry to go hydrogen, its made from their fossil fuel, it uses a lot fossil fuel as energy to make it, you need huge refinery's to make it, you need a large tanker fleet of vehicles to transport it about, you need a network of retail outlets to dispense it, the cars also need regular servicing and complex filters which the car industry loves. BEVs make the oil industry and their infrastructure utterly obsolete, and dealers can no longer charge £30 a ltr for oil they pay £2 a ltr for.

Japan prefers hydrogen over BEVs because they have very limited space as a country so its harder for them to roll out huge renewable energy schemes, although i am sure i read an article recently where toyota admitted hydrogen was not the way forward for passenger cars

from a consumers perspective the cars are a lot more expensive than BEVs, hugely slower, and refuelling costs are a lot more, closer to fossil fuel prices

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Monday 9th December 12:43

[Dont like rolls]

otolith said:

Neither my lifestyle nor yours is going to determine overall uptake, but your first world problem NEEDS seem unlikely to be even typical of first world users.

Normal people don't suddenly NEED to drive hundreds of miles, certainly not regularly enough for it to be a reason to give themselves a daily inconvenience.

"Normal people", classic

Out of this now, go try and insult somebody else.

[T-195]

Dave Hedgehog said:

use rapid chargers, Tesla Bjorn regularly does 1000km trips in EVs of all sorts with few problems

Apart from the massive inconvenience.

[otolith]

Dont like rolls said:

otolith said:

Neither my lifestyle nor yours is going to determine overall uptake, but your first world problem NEEDS seem unlikely to be even typical of first world users.

Normal people don't suddenly NEED to drive hundreds of miles, certainly not regularly enough for it to be a reason to give themselves a daily inconvenience.

"Normal people", classic

Out of this now, go try and insult somebody else.

Normal, average, typical. Whatever.

[ruggedscotty]

Hydrogen

Its not an alternative and the petrol companies know it....

so you want to remain active in fueling a car you work on something that has as much similarity as you can to the existing setup.

1. a. Petrol is refined b. hydrogen is manufactured

2 a. Petrol is distributed b. hydrogen is distributed to garages

3. a. petrol is pumped into cars b. hydrogen is pumped into cars

4. a. Petrol stations required b. hydrogen stations required.

What do Shell have tons of petrol stations, an infrastructure right there needing to be reused. they lose the revenue generated from that and that is a large part of forecourt life.

People don't want that people want electric cars, they want to be able to charge up and go about their business, 100 to 150 mile ranges are not an issue if a recharge is seconds, and that is quite possible in the not to distant future. batteries take time to charge however capacitors don't. get a capacitor towards the energy density of a battery.....and its solved.... limit will be getting the power to the capacitor as possible.

[Evanivitch]

ruggedscotty said:

What do Shell have tons of petrol stations, an infrastructure right there needing to be reused. they lose the revenue generated from that and that is a large part of forecourt life.

And both Shell and BP have invested in charging infrastructure, quite good as well if a little expensive.

Now Tesla have already proven you can cluster several high capacity chargers, and Ionity are doing the same. Imagine having 10-20 customers do nothing but sitting in their car for 20 minutes. What couldn't you sell them?

[gangzoom]

ruggedscotty said:

get a capacitor towards the energy density of a battery.....and its solved.

You make it sound so easy, our 110 mile trip up the M1 yesterday used enough energy to power our house for 2 days solid. Trying to transfer than amount of energy in a short time will never be easy.

No one should underestimate the amount of energy these battery packs are storing, or just how easy/good energy source petrol/diesel is.

Hydrogen in comparison to petrol/diesels is a logistic nightmare, forget generating it, just storing, transporting it is a major pain.

[GOATever]

Hydrogen is a gas, if that gas leaks, and mixes with air, it becomes explosive, and a Hydrogen / air cloud could be quite extensive. It’s invisible, odourless, and very easily ignited. There’s no way I’d want to be driving around in a car, with gaseous Hydrogen fuelling it. Possibly a metal Hydride and water system, or water fuel cell, but not gaseous Hydrogen.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Evanivitch said:

And both Shell and BP have invested in charging infrastructure, quite good as well if a little expensive.

Now Tesla have already proven you can cluster several high capacity chargers, and Ionity are doing the same. Imagine having 10-20 customers do nothing but sitting in their car for 20 minutes. What couldn't you sell them?

There not stupid if they can switch their business model over to hydrogen what is left for them

[jjwilde]

LasseV said:

Because enviroment. We need to cut down overall emissions, and BEV's can't do that. It is highly questionable that are BEV's better than ICE cars for enviroment.

Thats the reason why we need hydrogen cars. They can be genuinely clean transportation. Besides fuel cell cars are not bad cars, they have a great range and they are much cheaper to produce than BEV's. According to Toyota/Hyundai fuell cell cars are cheaper to produce than ICE cars in 2025.

My prediction is that in the future luxury cars are BEV's and common people/commercial will drive hydrogen cars.

What?! You have no clue how hydrogen cars work clearly.

[jjwilde]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Correct, totally wrong and shows a total lack of understanding of what's involved. The sort of crap that Clarkson pulls out of his arse.

As soon as Clarkson says EVs are the future and make an episode of Top Gear (GT whatever) saying they are the future and they were wrong about hydrogen suddenly a whole load of people will change their opinion.

James May is almost there on this...

[Dave Hedgehog]

jjwilde said:

As soon as Clarkson says EVs are the future and make an episode of Top Gear (GT whatever) saying they are the future and they were wrong about hydrogen suddenly a whole load of people will change their opinion.

James May is almost there on this...

its not that, clarkson banged on about hydrogen cars for ages with zero understanding of what is involved in making them green

the drones absorbed this and it became a mantra for some, if you want a chuckle read some of the daily mail responses about them

hydrogen could have a very important future in personal transportation, it has a huge number of hurdles to overcome which realistically will take at leasta decade, BEVs have far far fewer and are viable now for many

[RobDickinson]

Hydrogen exists now as purely a distraction.

The more confusion in the market the more oil companies profit.

Its that simple.

[ruggedscotty]

Betamax vhs…. all over again

[Evanivitch]

ruggedscotty said:

Betamax vhs…. all over again

I guess the porn industry has already cast the deciding vote...

[CoolHands]

Sticking the charging posts everywhere isn’t realistic; if you look down many London streets they are rammed with cars of people the live in flats. You’d have to have 1 every 5 metres. And waiting till they get to the supermarket would be no good as you’d have to have 1 in every space; having 15 or 20 would be useless.

Also I wouldn’t want a rapid charger outside my flat as they are noisy. I saw 2 poor muppets sat in their car for ages at IKEA with the fan in the post blowing massively, they were there when I went in and there when I came out! Poor saps.