Hydrogen refueling is here
Discussion
CoolHands said:
Sticking the charging posts everywhere isn’t realistic; if you look down many London streets they are rammed with cars of people the live in flats. You’d have to have 1 every 5 metres. And waiting till they get to the supermarket would be no good as you’d have to have 1 in every space; having 15 or 20 would be useless.
Also I wouldn’t want a rapid charger outside my flat as they are noisy. I saw 2 poor muppets sat in their car for ages at IKEA with the fan in the post blowing massively, they were there when I went in and there when I came out! Poor saps.
Why would everyone need to charge every night? Does everyone do 200 miles a day?Also I wouldn’t want a rapid charger outside my flat as they are noisy. I saw 2 poor muppets sat in their car for ages at IKEA with the fan in the post blowing massively, they were there when I went in and there when I came out! Poor saps.
Plenty of investment in on-street chargers.
https://airqualitynews.com/2018/08/20/project-aims...
We already have rapid chargers in supermarket car parks. And more are on the way. Tesco have taken a strange path having mostly 7kW posts but I think VW/Podpoint were giving them for free.
You live in London and think rapid charges are noise? Seriously...
I don’t think you’re realistic about human behaviour. People will continually be wanting to top their own car up. So every night you get home at 6pm and the local t
t who always gets home at 4pm will be sat on the charger & you’ll never get a look-in. You’ll be curtain twitching all night to try and get on one. It would be ridiculous, I can only assume you are blinkered to the reality of most London streets (I don’t know about elsewhere). It’s hard enough to simply find a spot to park.
t who always gets home at 4pm will be sat on the charger & you’ll never get a look-in. You’ll be curtain twitching all night to try and get on one. It would be ridiculous, I can only assume you are blinkered to the reality of most London streets (I don’t know about elsewhere). It’s hard enough to simply find a spot to park.CoolHands said:
I don’t think you’re realistic about human behaviour. People will continually be wanting to top their own car up. So every night you get home at 6pm and the local tt who always gets home at 4pm will be sat on the charger & you’ll never get a look-in. You’ll be curtain twitching all night to try and get on one. It would be ridiculous, I can only assume you are blinkered to the reality of most London streets (I don’t know about elsewhere). It’s hard enough to simply find a spot to park.
How many people are constantly in the petrol station adding a few litres to brim?t who always gets home at 4pm will be sat on the charger & you’ll never get a look-in. You’ll be curtain twitching all night to try and get on one. It would be ridiculous, I can only assume you are blinkered to the reality of most London streets (I don’t know about elsewhere). It’s hard enough to simply find a spot to park.The benefit of public car chargers are there are easy ways of monitoring and penalising misuse. Overstay? Penalty. Not charging? Penalty. Blocking? Penalty.
CoolHands said:
Also I wouldn’t want a rapid charger outside my flat as they are noisy. I saw 2 poor muppets sat in their car for ages at IKEA with the fan in the post blowing massively, they were there when I went in and there when I came out! Poor saps.
Agreed. I was thinking the same last night when sat watching a film on Netflix in our Model 3 Performance whilst adding 200+ miles of range for free. Couldn't hear the charger fan over the surround sound fortunately but even so, where did it all go so wrong..
Dave Hedgehog said:
coetzeeh said:
The fact that Germany and Japan are investing materially into the development of the technology suggests Hydrogen will play a material part in transportation's future - both nations have first class track records for getting technology right.
there is huge pressure from the oil industry to go hydrogen, its made from their fossil fuel, it uses a lot fossil fuel as energy to make it, you need huge refinery's to make it, you need a large tanker fleet of vehicles to transport it about, you need a network of retail outlets to dispense it, the cars also need regular servicing and complex filters which the car industry loves. BEVs make the oil industry and their infrastructure utterly obsolete, and dealers can no longer charge £30 a ltr for oil they pay £2 a ltr for.Japan prefers hydrogen over BEVs because they have very limited space as a country so its harder for them to roll out huge renewable energy schemes, although i am sure i read an article recently where toyota admitted hydrogen was not the way forward for passenger cars
from a consumers perspective the cars are a lot more expensive than BEVs, hugely slower, and refuelling costs are a lot more, closer to fossil fuel prices
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Monday 9th December 12:43
Dave Hedgehog said:
Correct, totally wrong and shows a total lack of understanding of what's involved. The sort of crap that Clarkson pulls out of his arse.
I don't care about clarkson opinions.I have followed enviroment issues since late 90's and battery equipment cars since when 2nd gen Prius was released. In the last 15 years none of the issues are solved, and that's the reason why my point of view have changed. I even owned one old prius.
First rule for enviromental friendly product is long life time. Battery cars doesn't last long enough. All the old priuses batteries has died, pure EV's are even worse. I know you guys live in UK where you drive new cars, but rest of the world doesn't. Longevity is an real issue.
Second is that batteries will degrade over the years, so efficiency will drop. So, they are not that efficient to drive what you have been told. For example jag I pace takes now about 40kwh per/60 miles (according finnish magazine), when it gets older it takes even more. Problem is, electricity is not that clean even in europe and it will raise overall emissions. Hands up if you think you use "clean" electricity...
Third problem is that broken battery packs are waste. It is not enviroment friendly or economically sustainable to reuse them. Complete waste which will be a big problem in the future. Some f**kface said to me that spend 5 minutes in google, i don't need that but you can check this out. And this problem gets even worse when you think that batteries will last like 8 or 10 years...
Now i have talked about enviromental issues but of course there is also economical side too. BEV's are too expensive, because they have a one very expensive and fragile component which is not getting any cheaper. And it is too expensive to build distribution network for every car.
Fuel cell cars are more better for enviroment, that is 100% sure. They are more cheaper to produce (turning point is 2025 vs ICE cars) than BEV's, they don't have one fragile component (so they will last longer) and they have better range in every situation. As i said earlier, luxury cars will be (maybe) BEV's but most common cars and commercials will be hydrogen cars.
BEV's are not good enough, that's the reason why there is an huge investments for hydrogen cars. That is a fact.
Edited by LasseV on Tuesday 10th December 00:09
Edited by LasseV on Tuesday 10th December 00:09
Edited by LasseV on Tuesday 10th December 00:11
oop north said:
1.5 kWh per mile? Nonsense - I have one and it has never been that low
It was instrumented test made by finnish version of teknikens världen. Reliable source. Cold finnish weather tho, other magazine did get better result, but it was still over 30kwh/60 miles (highway but summertime).Edit: aaaand.i.think.i.did.read.your.post.wrong
[footnote]Edited by LasseV on Tuesday 10th December
Edited by LasseV on Tuesday 10th December 00:49
LasseV said:
BEV's are not good enough, that's the reason why there is an huge investments for hydrogen cars. That is a fact.
Pretty much every car company has dropped FCEV now apart from Hyundai and Toyota. Norway had 8 filling stations, 6 went bust, 1 exploded the last got shut down.
Korea had theirs go bust because they couldnt make a profit. Oh and one blew up.
California had one blow up and the others had so poor supply of h2 there was crazy queues if any actually turned up.
My BEV does ~200mpg (based on energy).
A similar FCEV will do about 40mpg. Its also heavier, slower, and costs twice the price.
none of that is likely to change in the future.
RobDickinson said:
batteries dont get less efficient as they get older, they loose overall capacity.
1kwh is still 1kwh.
No. You will need to put about 1.1kwh to your 1kw battery. When battery gets older, you still put 1.1kwh but you will get less overall capacity. Ie they will get less efficient.1kwh is still 1kwh.
RobDickinson said:
Pretty much every car company has dropped FCEV now apart from Hyundai and Toyota.
Norway had 8 filling stations, 6 went bust, 1 exploded the last got shut down.
Korea had theirs go bust because they couldnt make a profit. Oh and one blew up.
California had one blow up and the others had so poor supply of h2 there was crazy queues if any actually turned up.
My BEV does ~200mpg (based on energy).
A similar FCEV will do about 40mpg. Its also heavier, slower, and costs twice the price.
none of that is likely to change in the future.
Bs. Mirai is already cheaper than tesla. And no one will make profit about BEVs market at the moment. Germany, korea and japan does make a lot of investments for hydrogen cars.Norway had 8 filling stations, 6 went bust, 1 exploded the last got shut down.
Korea had theirs go bust because they couldnt make a profit. Oh and one blew up.
California had one blow up and the others had so poor supply of h2 there was crazy queues if any actually turned up.
My BEV does ~200mpg (based on energy).
A similar FCEV will do about 40mpg. Its also heavier, slower, and costs twice the price.
none of that is likely to change in the future.
LasseV said:
Bs. Mirai is already cheaper than tesla. And no one will make profit about BEVs market at the moment. Germany, korea and japan does make a lot of investments for hydrogen cars.
Bs Mirai starts at $60k https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai
Tesla make around %20 margin on their sales
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Fuel-ce...
https://fortune.com/2017/04/02/daimler-fuel-cell-c...
Edited by RobDickinson on Tuesday 10th December 00:44
RobDickinson said:
How much is a tesla with 500km range? In real life? 100k?Oh, and yeah hyundais fuel cell truck is good one. In switzerland.
https://www.hyundai.co.nz/hyundai-motor-and-h2-ene...
RobDickinson said:
Bs Mirai starts at $60k
https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai
Tesla make around %20 margin on their sales
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Fuel-ce...
https://fortune.com/2017/04/02/daimler-fuel-cell-c...
Aaand they are heavily in debts.https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai
Tesla make around %20 margin on their sales
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Fuel-ce...
https://fortune.com/2017/04/02/daimler-fuel-cell-c...
Edited by RobDickinson on Tuesday 10th December 00:44
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