Hydrogen refueling is here

[RobDickinson]

LasseV said:

Aaand they are heavily in debts.

mkay whatever. $12bn debt, $6bn cash, massive growing market, massive percentage of that growing market, new factory on stream, another planned for Europe. 4 new vehicles coming on line in the next 1-2 years, near a decade ahead of the competition.

stty position to be in aye.

[otolith]

LasseV said:

Problem is, electricity is not that clean even in europe and it will raise overall emissions. Hands up if you think you use "clean" electricity...

You do get that fuel cell cars run on grid electricity to make hydrogen and use more of it per km than battery cars? Just checking?

LasseV said:

Fuel cell cars are more better for enviroment, that is 100% sure. They are more cheaper to produce (turning point is 2025 vs ICE cars) than BEV's, they don't have one fragile component (so they will last longer)

Did you not know that HFC cars have hybrid sized batteries, because the fuel cell can’t cope with transients.

[RobDickinson]

otolith said:

Did you not know that HFC cars have hybrid sized batteries, because the fuel cell can’t cope with transients.

Which will get trashed a lot harder than a full BEV battery.

[LasseV]

otolith said:

Did you not know that HFC cars have hybrid sized batteries, because the fuel cell can’t cope with transients.

No, i didn't know because Toyota Mirai has 1.6kwh battery. Hybrid car doesn't use that small.

[tamore]

as soon as someone cracks batteries with anywhere near 1,000 Wh/kg density, hydrogen is finally dead for personal transport. there could well be a big future for hydrogen in larger machinery though.

[otolith]

LasseV said:

No, i didn't know because Toyota Mirai has 1.6kwh battery. Hybrid car doesn't use that small.

It's the same spec as the one in the Toyota Camry hybrid.

[Dave Hedgehog]

LasseV said:

I don't care about clarkson opinions.

I have followed enviroment issues since late 90's and battery equipment cars since when 2nd gen Prius was released. In the last 15 years none of the issues are solved, and that's the reason why my point of view have changed. I even owned one old prius.

First rule for enviromental friendly product is long life time. Battery cars doesn't last long enough. All the old priuses batteries has died, pure EV's are even worse. I know you guys live in UK where you drive new cars, but rest of the world doesn't. Longevity is an real issue.

Second is that batteries will degrade over the years, so efficiency will drop. So, they are not that efficient to drive what you have been told. For example jag I pace takes now about 40kwh per/60 miles (according finnish magazine), when it gets older it takes even more. Problem is, electricity is not that clean even in europe and it will raise overall emissions. Hands up if you think you use "clean" electricity...

Third problem is that broken battery packs are waste. It is not enviroment friendly or economically sustainable to reuse them. Complete waste which will be a big problem in the future. Some f**kface said to me that spend 5 minutes in google, i don't need that but you can check this out. And this problem gets even worse when you think that batteries will last like 8 or 10 years...

Now i have talked about enviromental issues but of course there is also economical side too. BEV's are too expensive, because they have a one very expensive and fragile component which is not getting any cheaper. And it is too expensive to build distribution network for every car.

Fuel cell cars are more better for enviroment, that is 100% sure. They are more cheaper to produce (turning point is 2025 vs ICE cars) than BEV's, they don't have one fragile component (so they will last longer) and they have better range in every situation. As i said earlier, luxury cars will be (maybe) BEV's but most common cars and commercials will be hydrogen cars.

BEV's are not good enough, that's the reason why there is an huge investments for hydrogen cars. That is a fact.

just about everything you wrote is wrong lol

[Dave Hedgehog]

otolith said:

LasseV said:

No, i didn't know because Toyota Mirai has 1.6kwh battery. Hybrid car doesn't use that small.

It's the same spec as the one in the Toyota Camry hybrid.

and its reported by users that once its drained which can happen in the real world the Mirai looses about 30% of its power

[Toaster]

Evanivitch said:

Toaster said:

Just to add to the Hydrogen bit

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/hydrogen-fue...


Oh and the German ones https://youtu.be/TWjBy-BKmJ4

Wont be long before its in Trucks and Cars

Definitely a possible solution for South Wales Valley lines, but still begs the question, where's the hydrogen coming from?

This was the press statement back in 2017:

The hydrogen used for the test runs is the by-product of an industrial process, which is reasonably reused as a waste product. In the long term, Alstom aims to support the hydrogen production from wind energy.
https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2017/3/...

[otolith]

Waste product my arse, why don't they just admit "it's from fossil fuel".

[jjwilde]

It's surprising Tesla have not announced the Tesla Train or the Chinese have not made a BEV train. The recharging required would certainly be available in each station.

[anonymous-user]

Toaster said:

Evanivitch said:

Toaster said:

Just to add to the Hydrogen bit

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/hydrogen-fue...


Oh and the German ones https://youtu.be/TWjBy-BKmJ4

Wont be long before its in Trucks and Cars

Definitely a possible solution for South Wales Valley lines, but still begs the question, where's the hydrogen coming from?

This was the press statement back in 2017:

The hydrogen used for the test runs is the by-product of an industrial process, which is reasonably reused as a waste product. In the long term, Alstom aims to support the hydrogen production from wind energy.
https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2017/3/...

and of course there is the problem that per unit energy generated by that wind, using it in a HFC vehicle means that vehicle will travel LESS distance than a BeV using that energy. So why would you want do that? And unnlike electricity, you have to physically pipe or ship hydrogen around, and everytime you move it, it needs pumping between tankage, a futher in-efficiency!

It's also worth noting that Hydrogen Fuel Cells used in a practical automotive environment themselves have a finite life (due to complex factors around stress and degredation of the membrane that seperates their electrodes), so just like an ICE, just like a BeV, they also "wear out" each and every time you use them

The ONLY reason to make hydrogen from "excess" renewable energy is for short term storage, when the other option is turning those generation assets off comepletely, and in that case, to avoid the distribution losses and cost, that hydrogen is most likely going to be turned back into electricity where is was created, rather than become availabel for other transport needs. But, as the number of grid connected battery systems grows, not just in terms of specific grid back up schemes (ie large scale industrialised battery backups) but also in terms of "transient" user-storage (ie BeVs plugged in when not used), that is already looking like a costly, complex and actually un-necesssary expense!

[anonymous-user]

The other significant problem with developing a hydrogen passenger car is that all your work, effort and the massive spending involved could suddenly and quite simply be made totally obsolete overnight, which is not a good sales pitch to any potential investors!

What i mean is that the "Problem" solved by HFC passenger cars is just one of range (and to a lesser degree, refueling time, but that is arguable because there is NO Hydrogen network availiabel to end users, so the fact it only takes 10 min to fill up is negated by having to drive 3 hours to get to the filling station...)

But today, BeV already have a real world practical range that is actually totally fine for the vast, vast majority of passenger car owners, and with a small increase in battery specific capacity, that range becomes suitable for all, at which point your more expensive, less efficient and less reliable (due to it's complexity) HFC vehicle becomes an expensive white elephant.........

[jamoor]

jjwilde said:

It's surprising Tesla have not announced the Tesla Train or the Chinese have not made a BEV train. The recharging required would certainly be available in each station.

Fair point plus you know to the metre how much distance it will cover. Just have a carriage of battery packs if you need more power.

[Evanivitch]

jjwilde said:

It's surprising Tesla have not announced the Tesla Train or the Chinese have not made a BEV train. The recharging required would certainly be available in each station.

Rail probably isn't on Elon's radar. Metro and tram lines are already electrified, but they don't have the legacy commuter lines that are still on diesel sheds.

Welsh Valleys are a good example of where electric BEV/Hydrogen could do well, with regen on the return journey being beneficial.

[RobDickinson]

Theres already a couple of battery electric rail lines but they are small potatoes so far.

[jjwilde]

jamoor said:

Fair point plus you know to the metre how much distance it will cover. Just have a carriage of battery packs if you need more power.

Because weight would not be as much of an issue it might be a good use for second hand batteries if they want to do it on the cheap in places like Wales. Sadly Wales seems to like throwing millions upon millions at hydrogen cars though... with nothing to show for it.

[Dave Hedgehog]

jjwilde said:

It's surprising Tesla have not announced the Tesla Train or the Chinese have not made a BEV train. The recharging required would certainly be available in each station.

or just use an electrified third rail, like many lines already do

[Evanivitch]

jjwilde said:

jamoor said:

Fair point plus you know to the metre how much distance it will cover. Just have a carriage of battery packs if you need more power.

Because weight would not be as much of an issue it might be a good use for second hand batteries if they want to do it on the cheap in places like Wales. Sadly Wales seems to like throwing millions upon millions at hydrogen cars though... with nothing to show for it.

What you mean nothing? We have almost as many (working) hydrogen fuelling stations as London and a crap fibreglass Sinclair-esque thing. That's hardly nothing.

[poing]

Evanivitch said:

poing said:

3kw isn't going to be suitable for a lot of cars, 7kw will be the minimum for a realistic charge rate especially as cars get bigger batteries.

Why? What's the average commute? What's the required energy to do that journey?

The majority of commuters could literally get buy using a 13A socket. Think about it, your car is at work for 8 hours? Home for at least 10 hours? Even at 20kWh, that's 50-80 miles range overnight.

poing said:

The planning permission is also going to be an issue because we are dealing with the British public. They will inevitably complain about these "ugly boxes" popping up on all their pretty little streets just like they complain about all other changes. We've been denied solar panels at work because our building is listed but we have been allowed a single charger pod, just one between the 50 cars that park there.

I've never known a local authority make anything simple.

Meanwhile the local authority mandated chargers at one site so we have four, we voluntarily installed 4 more at another site, and the offices around us are covered in solar panels.

You're making generalisations that don't play true for the majority.

On the first point. The average commute is just that, an average. Some people (like me) do far more than average because we live in a more rural environment. I've done over 100 miles every day this week.

The point I was making about 3kw was because we were talking about a large street with flats and other terraced houses. They have multiple cars per household and there simply isn't enough space on the street for a charger per car so 3kw means people have to charge for much longer. Some of this will be dictated by the pricing structure though, will it be per hour or per kw?

You say 'the average commute' like that's the only thing people do with their cars. People also take their kids to things in the evenings like sports events or such like. Yes yes, people can charge there but they won't because they are there for a few minutes picking up and dropping off. People will take to electric if it's both financially beneficial and convenient. To cover the costs of installing all these 10,000's of points will cost money as will the electric.

On the second points I'm not making generalisations at all, I'm making observations based on facts. Even the best local authority simply won't be able to install enough chargers in a reasonable time. For example, my own small town has a population of just under 7000 people. It has 2 public chargers, the same it's had for the last 2 years.

This is where hydrogen can fit in very nicely.