Hydrogen refueling is here
Discussion
poing said:
On the first point. The average commute is just that, an average. Some people (like me) do far more than average because we live in a more rural environment. I've done over 100 miles every day this week.
I have several colleagues that do over 100 miles a day, everyday, in electric cars... I do 70 miles myself, way more than the average, all.on electric (Ampera).poing said:
The point I was making about 3kw was because we were talking about a large street with flats and other terraced houses. They have multiple cars per household and there simply isn't enough space on the street for a charger per car so 3kw means people have to charge for much longer. Some of this will be dictated by the pricing structure though, will it be per hour or per kw?
Again, why do you need a charger per car if each car isn't using a full charge everyday?poing said:
You say 'the average commute' like that's the only thing people do with their cars. People also take their kids to things in the evenings like sports events or such like.
Average driver is still only doing 150 miles a week...poing said:
On the second points I'm not making generalisations at all, I'm making observations based on facts. Even the best local authority simply won't be able to install enough chargers in a reasonable time. For example, my own small town has a population of just under 7000 people. It has 2 public chargers, the same it's had for the last 2 years.
This is where hydrogen can fit in very nicely.
And your small town has how many hydrogen stations?This is where hydrogen can fit in very nicely.
Interestingly, I know rapid chargers being deployed at petrol stations. But of the 2 hydrogen stations I've been to, they were on large bespoke sites...
Hydrogen is very much alive and evolving - look at the intersting developents between Toyota and Shell with regards to HGV transportation in California.
The technology and evolution is probably a decade behind BEV so you really can't compare the two now - but Hydrogen will become material part of clean transportation, no doubt.
The technology and evolution is probably a decade behind BEV so you really can't compare the two now - but Hydrogen will become material part of clean transportation, no doubt.
There are some interesting hydrogen projects - using offshore wind to produce it, then using it to fuel ferries. https://news.st-andrews.ac.uk/archive/ferguson-mar...
coetzeeh said:
Hydrogen is very much alive and evolving - look at the intersting developents between Toyota and Shell with regards to HGV transportation in California.
The technology and evolution is probably a decade behind BEV so you really can't compare the two now - but Hydrogen will become material part of clean transportation, no doubt.
OK but physics says it can't. Who will win?The technology and evolution is probably a decade behind BEV so you really can't compare the two now - but Hydrogen will become material part of clean transportation, no doubt.
jjwilde said:
coetzeeh said:
Hydrogen is very much alive and evolving - look at the intersting developents between Toyota and Shell with regards to HGV transportation in California.
The technology and evolution is probably a decade behind BEV so you really can't compare the two now - but Hydrogen will become material part of clean transportation, no doubt.
OK but physics says it can't. Who will win?The technology and evolution is probably a decade behind BEV so you really can't compare the two now - but Hydrogen will become material part of clean transportation, no doubt.
Time will tell I guess.
coetzeeh said:
Shell, Honda, Toyota disagrees with you. Who should I believe?
Time will tell I guess.
They believe it so much that they're selling them competitively priced (with those rediculously expensive EVs) in order to build a base of users and infrastructure that will allow long term growth of the market?Time will tell I guess.
Toyota Mirai £66,000
Hyundai IX35 Hydrogen £53,000
No, no I didn't think so.
coetzeeh said:
Shell, Honda, Toyota disagrees with you. Who should I believe?
Time will tell I guess.
Shell are getting paid to build those stations (UK hydrogen refuelling station network has been jointly funded by the UK's Office for Low Emission Vehicles and the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking).Time will tell I guess.
Japanese Government is pushing Hydrogen as a strategic move, so Honda and Toyota will be getting cash/tax incentives for it.
“Hydrogen, as both a primary source, and more importantly, a carrier of energy, must become cheaper and more easily affordable,” declared prime minister Shinzo Abe in Davos this year. “My government is aiming to reduce the production cost of hydrogen by at least 90 per cent by the year 2050, to make it cheaper than natural gas....
Get it right and hydrogen offers a way to fully decarbonise Japan’s transport sector, using fuel from a reliable strategic ally, while providing the automotive industry with a fresh source of competitive advantage over international rivals. " https://www.ft.com/content/c586475e-7260-11e9-bf5c...
hyphen said:
Shell are getting paid to build those stations (UK hydrogen refuelling station network has been jointly funded by the UK's Office for Low Emission Vehicles and the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking).
Japanese Government is pushing Hydrogen as a strategic move, so Honda and Toyota will be getting cash/tax incentives for it.
“Hydrogen, as both a primary source, and more importantly, a carrier of energy, must become cheaper and more easily affordable,” declared prime minister Shinzo Abe in Davos this year. “My government is aiming to reduce the production cost of hydrogen by at least 90 per cent by the year 2050, to make it cheaper than natural gas....
Get it right and hydrogen offers a way to fully decarbonise Japan’s transport sector, using fuel from a reliable strategic ally, while providing the automotive industry with a fresh source of competitive advantage over international rivals. " https://www.ft.com/content/c586475e-7260-11e9-bf5c...
Japanese Government is pushing Hydrogen as a strategic move, so Honda and Toyota will be getting cash/tax incentives for it.
“Hydrogen, as both a primary source, and more importantly, a carrier of energy, must become cheaper and more easily affordable,” declared prime minister Shinzo Abe in Davos this year. “My government is aiming to reduce the production cost of hydrogen by at least 90 per cent by the year 2050, to make it cheaper than natural gas....
Get it right and hydrogen offers a way to fully decarbonise Japan’s transport sector, using fuel from a reliable strategic ally, while providing the automotive industry with a fresh source of competitive advantage over international rivals. " https://www.ft.com/content/c586475e-7260-11e9-bf5c...
FT said:
But Japan is unlikely to give up easily on the hydrogen dream. “I think Japan is the most advanced nation in the world for hydrogen,” said Mr Kaneko. “If you ask why, it’s because Japan has so few other options to reduce its carbon emissions.”
FT said:
Japan’s small, mountainous and densely populated islands are ill-suited to large-scale production of renewable electricity, while in the aftermath of the meltdowns at Fukushima Daiichi in 2011, the country has little appetite for nuclear power. If those constraints remain, some form of carbon-free import is all that is left.
An interesting explanation of why Japan appears to be pursuing something that makes no sense for anybody else. I'm not sure that tying their economy to imports of fossil fuels with carbon capture and storage is a great strategy compared to, say, offshore renewables, but it's probably a low risk short term strategy.2Btoo said:
coetzeeh said:
Been following the alternative fueling discussions here but never realised that a significant player is building a Hydrogen refueling estate.
Shell is building a network of 400 Hydrogen refueling stations in Germany, and expanding the network in California according to their website.
https://www.shell.co.uk/make-the-future/cleaner-en...
Interesting, thanks for the link. Shell is building a network of 400 Hydrogen refueling stations in Germany, and expanding the network in California according to their website.
https://www.shell.co.uk/make-the-future/cleaner-en...
Very UK-based advert and yet the network doesn't yet exist in the UK (as far as I am aware, unless someone can correct me).
This is the reality of japan's 'clean and decarbonising' h2 process
https://jalopnik.com/kawasaki-launches-the-worlds-...
They are burning brown coal in Australia to make liquid hydrogen then burning diesel to ship it to Japan.
Hydrogen is a terribly inefficient expensive dangerous fossil fuel proxy.
https://jalopnik.com/kawasaki-launches-the-worlds-...
They are burning brown coal in Australia to make liquid hydrogen then burning diesel to ship it to Japan.
Hydrogen is a terribly inefficient expensive dangerous fossil fuel proxy.
RobDickinson said:
This is the reality of japan's 'clean and decarbonising' h2 process
https://jalopnik.com/kawasaki-launches-the-worlds-...
They are burning brown coal in Australia to make liquid hydrogen then burning diesel to ship it to Japan.
Hydrogen is a terribly inefficient expensive dangerous fossil fuel proxy.
It looks almost as they are trying to replicate the shipping fossil fuels around the world method of doing business but just changing it to hydrogen to preserve the shipping industry.https://jalopnik.com/kawasaki-launches-the-worlds-...
They are burning brown coal in Australia to make liquid hydrogen then burning diesel to ship it to Japan.
Hydrogen is a terribly inefficient expensive dangerous fossil fuel proxy.
FT said:
Japan’s small, mountainous and densely populated islands are ill-suited to large-scale production of renewable electricity, while in the aftermath of the meltdowns at Fukushima Daiichi in 2011, the country has little appetite for nuclear power. If those constraints remain, some form of carbon-free import is all that is left.
I had to look into why wind power was quite insignificant in the Japanese energy mix.Seems a combination of a lack of government incentives, onshore noise pollution concerns and deep coastal waters.
Seems the first issue is slowly changing, the second issue must be a hangover from the Korean fan-death paranoia (which is known to a lesser extent in Japan) and slowly we're seeing floating turbines being used.
jamoor said:
RobDickinson said:
This is the reality of japan's 'clean and decarbonising' h2 process
https://jalopnik.com/kawasaki-launches-the-worlds-...
They are burning brown coal in Australia to make liquid hydrogen then burning diesel to ship it to Japan.
Hydrogen is a terribly inefficient expensive dangerous fossil fuel proxy.
It looks almost as they are trying to replicate the shipping fossil fuels around the world method of doing business but just changing it to hydrogen to preserve the shipping industry.https://jalopnik.com/kawasaki-launches-the-worlds-...
They are burning brown coal in Australia to make liquid hydrogen then burning diesel to ship it to Japan.
Hydrogen is a terribly inefficient expensive dangerous fossil fuel proxy.
I see no issue in looking at alternative options, when did they fist conceive the idea of an electric car, 1890 - 1900 odd? (I remember seeing one at a car show in Germany), Hydrogen may take 100 years or it may fail like BetaMax, we shouldn't pin all of our hope on Electric, Hydrogen may be viable for large ships, etc.
As you say, Toyota / Honda will be getting subsidiaries from the Government for R+D, why not.
Lord.Vader said:
Hasn't James May just taken delivery of a Hydrogen car?
I see no issue in looking at alternative options, when did they fist conceive the idea of an electric car, 1890 - 1900 odd? (I remember seeing one at a car show in Germany), Hydrogen may take 100 years or it may fail like BetaMax, we shouldn't pin all of our hope on Electric, Hydrogen may be viable for large ships, etc.
As you say, Toyota / Honda will be getting subsidiaries from the Government for R+D, why not.
He also has a i3 and a Tesla. He just likes quirky things.I see no issue in looking at alternative options, when did they fist conceive the idea of an electric car, 1890 - 1900 odd? (I remember seeing one at a car show in Germany), Hydrogen may take 100 years or it may fail like BetaMax, we shouldn't pin all of our hope on Electric, Hydrogen may be viable for large ships, etc.
As you say, Toyota / Honda will be getting subsidiaries from the Government for R+D, why not.
Fuel cell has been around over a 100 years too. The FC isn't the issue, it's the refining of hydrogen on an industrial scale with renewable energy, plus transport and storage.
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