BBC "Should I ..." EV Car article
Discussion
Poppiecock said:
Let’s face it. The reason people are buying EV is because there are tax advantages in running them.
People can plead all they like about the local environmental benefits, but all you’re doing is kicking the environmental impact down the road to the developing world. But I suppose that doesn’t matter so long as you can lord it over your neighbours by demonstrating your concern for the environment by buying a new car that could take 15-20 years to payback its impact on the environment.
It’s not just cobalt that’s a problem, it’s the lithium, too.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-...
As above tax and virtue signalling my environmental credentials don't come into the decision making process for me at all.People can plead all they like about the local environmental benefits, but all you’re doing is kicking the environmental impact down the road to the developing world. But I suppose that doesn’t matter so long as you can lord it over your neighbours by demonstrating your concern for the environment by buying a new car that could take 15-20 years to payback its impact on the environment.
It’s not just cobalt that’s a problem, it’s the lithium, too.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-...
Edited by Poppiecock on Monday 19th August 09:15
EV's are a better solution for day to day driving IMHO, assuming you don't have a requirement to regularly do 500 miles+ per day. The driving experience is just superior. Instant torque, incredibly smooth and no noise just make driving a more pleasurable experience day to day.
Would I take one on a track day or out for a Sunday morning blast on my favourite B Road, no. But then that's about 1% of the cars usage so really not important in the grand scheme of things, and who does that in a practical family car anyway? I'll spend the fuel savings on a toy that's better suited to the task instead.
SWoll said:
As above tax and virtue signalling my environmental credentials don't come into the decision making process for me at all.
EV's are a better solution for day to day driving IMHO, assuming you don't have a requirement to regularly do 500 miles+ per day. The driving experience is just superior. Instant torque, incredibly smooth and no noise just make driving a more pleasurable experience day to day.
Would I take one on a track day or out for a Sunday morning blast on my favourite B Road, no. But then that's about 1% of the cars usage so really not important in the grand scheme of things, and who does that in a practical family car anyway? I'll spend the fuel savings on a toy that's better suited to the task instead.
Would it still stack up if the running costs were the same as ICE? - because that's where it tends to fall down. The inconveniences are ignored due to the cost benefit. Remove the cost benefit and equalise duties etc., and they no longer look so attractive.EV's are a better solution for day to day driving IMHO, assuming you don't have a requirement to regularly do 500 miles+ per day. The driving experience is just superior. Instant torque, incredibly smooth and no noise just make driving a more pleasurable experience day to day.
Would I take one on a track day or out for a Sunday morning blast on my favourite B Road, no. But then that's about 1% of the cars usage so really not important in the grand scheme of things, and who does that in a practical family car anyway? I'll spend the fuel savings on a toy that's better suited to the task instead.
Poppiecock said:
SWoll said:
As above tax and virtue signalling my environmental credentials don't come into the decision making process for me at all.
EV's are a better solution for day to day driving IMHO, assuming you don't have a requirement to regularly do 500 miles+ per day. The driving experience is just superior. Instant torque, incredibly smooth and no noise just make driving a more pleasurable experience day to day.
Would I take one on a track day or out for a Sunday morning blast on my favourite B Road, no. But then that's about 1% of the cars usage so really not important in the grand scheme of things, and who does that in a practical family car anyway? I'll spend the fuel savings on a toy that's better suited to the task instead.
Would it still stack up if the running costs were the same as ICE? - because that's where it tends to fall down. The inconveniences are ignored due to the cost benefit. Remove the cost benefit and equalise duties etc., and they no longer look so attractive.EV's are a better solution for day to day driving IMHO, assuming you don't have a requirement to regularly do 500 miles+ per day. The driving experience is just superior. Instant torque, incredibly smooth and no noise just make driving a more pleasurable experience day to day.
Would I take one on a track day or out for a Sunday morning blast on my favourite B Road, no. But then that's about 1% of the cars usage so really not important in the grand scheme of things, and who does that in a practical family car anyway? I'll spend the fuel savings on a toy that's better suited to the task instead.
The fact that I can save £2-300 a month against a comparable ICE car in fuel alone at the moment for 15k miles per year is a very compelling though of course. Helps me justify adding a new toy to the garage in the new year when discussing with the wife.
Poppiecock said:
Would it still stack up if the running costs were the same as ICE? - because that's where it tends to fall down. The inconveniences are ignored due to the cost benefit. Remove the cost benefit and equalise duties etc., and they no longer look so attractive.
Believe it or not I tried an EV for a week and gladly handed in the keys to my m140 because I found the i3 suited me better. The cost benefit then made it a no brainer. My i3 is an infinitely better commuter car precisely because of the way it delivers its power.It's a bit of a silly argument really as it's well known that people jumped on diesel because of the cost benefit. Why wouldn't they. The fact that EV's make diesel Vs petrol look ridiculous is just a bonus. Currently a huge bonus.
Poppiecock said:
Would it still stack up if the running costs were the same as ICE? - because that's where it tends to fall down. The inconveniences are ignored due to the cost benefit. Remove the cost benefit and equalise duties etc., and they no longer look so attractive.
Silent engines, torque across the powerband, completely absent of gear change, I can refill at home without visiting a petrol station and it defrosts itself on a frosty morning.Yes, because that's all I want on my 70 mile round trip commute. I'll keep a fun car for the fun stuff.
Poppiecock said:
Evanivitch said:
Poppiecock said:
Let’s face it. The reason people are buying EV is because there are tax advantages in running them.
You think private car buyers are buying EV to avoid £140 a year?But to answer your question, some do, yes, hence people chopping in decent cars on scrappage for nil tax Korean hatchbacks.
Evanivitch said:
None of those are tax advantages. I'm still paying the same for my electricity as everyone else. I'm still paying the same VAT on a EV.
There's currently no road fuel duty (so, no, not a tax, but a duty, but that's splitting hairs) on charging an EV.Apply road fuel duty at the equivalent rate to petrol or diesel and EV would start to look less convincing.
Almost everyone tries to convince themselves that their new EV is amazing, yet the reason they bought it was down to the cost savings - which, admittedly, is quite a powerful persuasive tool.
Ultimately, EV owners will argue that there hasn't been a compromise in their use, or that they are helping to save the planet, but we all know the real reason is that there's no road fuel duty (yet) on home charging. But it will come, once we reach a critical mass - why do you think there is such a push for smart metering?
Poppiecock said:
Evanivitch said:
None of those are tax advantages. I'm still paying the same for my electricity as everyone else. I'm still paying the same VAT on a EV.
There's currently no road fuel duty (so, no, not a tax, but a duty, but that's splitting hairs) on charging an EV.Apply road fuel duty at the equivalent rate to petrol or diesel and EV would start to look less convincing.
Almost everyone tries to convince themselves that their new EV is amazing, yet the reason they bought it was down to the cost savings - which, admittedly, is quite a powerful persuasive tool.
Ultimately, EV owners will argue that there hasn't been a compromise in their use, or that they are helping to save the planet, but we all know the real reason is that there's no road fuel duty (yet) on home charging. But it will come, once we reach a critical mass - why do you think there is such a push for smart metering?
Perhaps if you tried living with an EV for a decent length of time your view might change. Out of interest, have you even driven one?
SWoll said:
Why bother asking the question if you're going to dismiss everyone's responses? You've clearly already made up you mind and any variation from that either must be ignored or dismissed as delusion..
Perhaps if you tried living with an EV for a decent length of time your view might change. Out of interest, have you even driven one?
Yes, the i3.Perhaps if you tried living with an EV for a decent length of time your view might change. Out of interest, have you even driven one?
Didn't handle very well, had no character, did have the 'wow' factor of instant torque, but I've driven and lived with a few hybrids so it wasn't that much of a surprise - but, the range is pathetic (120 miles for the i3S if you're lucky and don't use the power) and interior quality is just terrible. Especially for a car that cost nearly £10k more than my ES.
Poppiecock said:
Evanivitch said:
None of those are tax advantages. I'm still paying the same for my electricity as everyone else. I'm still paying the same VAT on a EV.
There's currently no road fuel duty (so, no, not a tax, but a duty, but that's splitting hairs) on charging an EV.Apply road fuel duty at the equivalent rate to petrol or diesel and EV would start to look less convincing.
Almost everyone tries to convince themselves that their new EV is amazing, yet the reason they bought it was down to the cost savings - which, admittedly, is quite a powerful persuasive tool.
Ultimately, EV owners will argue that there hasn't been a compromise in their use, or that they are helping to save the planet, but we all know the real reason is that there's no road fuel duty (yet) on home charging. But it will come, once we reach a critical mass - why do you think there is such a push for smart metering?
I frequently drive hire cars of all sorts (company pays, so no budget constraints). And I've yet to find a motorway muncher with a diesel, petrol, manual or automatic that is as good to drive as an EV in motorway, cross country and traffic conditions. In fact I would go so far as to say that even the most modern automatic gearboxes (Mercedes 8 spd etc) are abysmal compared to an EV transmission, and they've had plenty of practice time.
Witchfinder said:
CrgT16 said:
For performance, spirited driving I prefer the more traditional setup of a petrol engine.
I'm sure you do, but here's the thing - burning fossil fuels is a major contributor to climate change and air quality problems. What you prefer is not going to matter soon.I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
simonwhite2000 said:
Why does your response have to have that 'chip on your shoulder' edge to it? Whilst you can still buy a petrol car people who want to can and shouldnt be guilt tripped. They are doing nothing illegal. All the more reason to enjoy the type of car he wants to drive now whilst the option is there.
I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
classic denial, that's like a smoker saying i wont get lung disease etc.I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
its not illegal to buy 10 bottles of whiskey and drink them all in one sitting, but its not the most sensible thing to do
its not illegal to enjoy driving or to enjoy petrol engines (well until comrade corbyn takes over anyway), but is there anyone who does not think there is a negative side to burning fossil fuels, be it climate change, particle emissions, finite supply, political power held by the oil companies or just giving billions of dollars to a bunch of lunatics in the middle east and the billions we have to spend on military to try and keep them in check.
simonwhite2000 said:
Why does your response have to have that 'chip on your shoulder' edge to it? Whilst you can still buy a petrol car people who want to can and shouldnt be guilt tripped. They are doing nothing illegal. All the more reason to enjoy the type of car he wants to drive now whilst the option is there.
I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
Yes, people should be guilt tripped, and yes you should feel guilty. We're taking about human extinction here.I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
You can apply your warped logic to all kinds of things that are not illegal but are morally wrong. Don't expect not to be called out on it though.
SWoll said:
Why bother asking the question if you're going to dismiss everyone's responses? You've clearly already made up you mind and any variation from that either must be ignored or dismissed as delusion..
Perhaps if you tried living with an EV for a decent length of time your view might change. Out of interest, have you even driven one?
Because he's another plonker that's only interested in trolling. He clearly can't work out that some might actually like cars that he doesn't. Perhaps if you tried living with an EV for a decent length of time your view might change. Out of interest, have you even driven one?
Not worth wasting keyboard time over imo.
Witchfinder said:
simonwhite2000 said:
Why does your response have to have that 'chip on your shoulder' edge to it? Whilst you can still buy a petrol car people who want to can and shouldnt be guilt tripped. They are doing nothing illegal. All the more reason to enjoy the type of car he wants to drive now whilst the option is there.
I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
Yes, people should be guilt tripped, and yes you should feel guilty. We're taking about human extinction here.I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
You can apply your warped logic to all kinds of things that are not illegal but are morally wrong. Don't expect not to be called out on it though.
Suppose if you can't see it or suffer the impact yourself, then it doesn't matter - so long as you can both virtue signal and save money.
Poppiecock said:
But all those who've been taken in by the Greenwashing are absolutely fine to continue to ignore the huge environmental impact of mining for rare earth metals?
Suppose if you can't see it or suffer the impact yourself, then it doesn't matter - so long as you can both virtue signal and save money.
Who's ignoring it? Manufacturers aren't. Governments aren't. Consumers aren't. So who is?Suppose if you can't see it or suffer the impact yourself, then it doesn't matter - so long as you can both virtue signal and save money.
On the otherside, when did oil fields become holiday destinations? When did iron mines become scenic vistas?
simonwhite2000 said:
Why does your response have to have that 'chip on your shoulder' edge to it? Whilst you can still buy a petrol car people who want to can and shouldnt be guilt tripped. They are doing nothing illegal. All the more reason to enjoy the type of car he wants to drive now whilst the option is there.
I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
It wasn't illegal to smoke in a public place. Or smoke in a car with children.I drive a 3 litre petrol turbo and average 23 mpg. I dont feel guilty about it I am doing nothing wrong.
This is a Pistonheads forum not Greenpeace.
If you define your morality purely by the law then to be frank, you're an ass.
Evanivitch said:
Who's ignoring it? Manufacturers aren't. Governments aren't. Consumers aren't. So who is?
On the otherside, when did oil fields become holiday destinations? When did iron mines become scenic vistas?
Precisely. It's the bullsOn the otherside, when did oil fields become holiday destinations? When did iron mines become scenic vistas?
t whataboutery we hear all the time from people who just don't want to accept that their lifestyle and everything else they take for granted is going to have to change.EVs at least halve CO2 emissions over an equivalent combustion vehicle over their life, and produce no local emissions.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff