Which home charging point?

[FiF]

No ideas for a name said:

Billigmeister said:

in terms of price it is practially the same and i think they have focussed their supply on 11kw models in terms of supply/delivery....so the cheaper option (by £300 wasnt available)

Yes, but if I understand this right - the 11kW model isn't very useful.
If I get what you mean properly - you are specifying the VEHICLE with an 11kW on-board charger option in preference to a VEHICLE with a 7kW on-board charger.

So, unless you have 3 phase, you are stuffed and going to be limited to 3.6kW charging.

Previously I thought you were choosing an 11kW EVSE (which still wouldn't be a great idea).
It isn't all that clear, but it looks like Citroen aren't giving great advice. The average consumer isn't going to 'get' the detail until they are already committed and had their fingers burned.

That was exactly the reason for my ?? in the earlier post, i.e. specifying the 11kw in car charger then saying probably going to install a standard 7kw wall unit.

Guess the 11kw charger models are more available as fewer buyers want them.

Found your comment regarding DNOs making 3ph a standard install. Being a nosey git had a trawl round Western Power upgrade pages but couldn't find what region it would cost. Update quick Google suggests most people pay £3,500 to 6,000.

Edited by FiF on Wednesday 29th June 20:03

[No ideas for a name]

FiF said:

That was exactly the reason for my ?? in the earlier post, i.e. specifying the 11kw in car charger then saying probably going to install a standard 7kw wall unit.

Guess the 11kw charger models are more available as fewer buyers want them.

Found your comment regarding DNOs making 3ph a standard install. Being a nosey git had a trawl round Western Power upgrade pages but couldn't find what region it would cost. Update quick Google suggests most people pay £3,500 to 6,000.

Edited by FiF on Wednesday 29th June 20:03

Yes, I think I misread the original and thought Citroen were selling the poster an 11kW EVSE along with his vehicle. It seems madness to design an on-board charger that is capable of sinking 11kW on 3 phase, but limiting that to 3.6kW on single phase .. it seems the only difference would be a few £ worth of diodes.

DNO: Yes, it is WPD. As far as I can tell, if you have a new supply, you get 3 phase by default. If THEY need to do the work (eg. to unloop a supply) then you can probably do a deal. I have an offer at present, that I do the duct, they do the 3 phase for free. In reality there will probably be a tea and biscuits surcharge. Last work we had done 'cost' two mugs of tea and a whole box of Mr Kiplings cakes.

[FiF]

No ideas for a name said:

FiF said:

That was exactly the reason for my ?? in the earlier post, i.e. specifying the 11kw in car charger then saying probably going to install a standard 7kw wall unit.

Guess the 11kw charger models are more available as fewer buyers want them.

Found your comment regarding DNOs making 3ph a standard install. Being a nosey git had a trawl round Western Power upgrade pages but couldn't find what region it would cost. Update quick Google suggests most people pay £3,500 to 6,000.

Edited by FiF on Wednesday 29th June 20:03

Yes, I think I misread the original and thought Citroen were selling the poster an 11kW EVSE along with his vehicle. It seems madness to design an on-board charger that is capable of sinking 11kW on 3 phase, but limiting that to 3.6kW on single phase .. it seems the only difference would be a few £ worth of diodes.

DNO: Yes, it is WPD. As far as I can tell, if you have a new supply, you get 3 phase by default. If THEY need to do the work (eg. to unloop a supply) then you can probably do a deal. I have an offer at present, that I do the duct, they do the 3 phase for free. In reality there will probably be a tea and biscuits surcharge. Last work we had done 'cost' two mugs of tea and a whole box of Mr Kiplings cakes.

Got a WPD guy lives round the corner, we swap and borrow various bits of car detailing kit back and forth. Might go and get some of those scrummy chocolate filled doughnuts from Lidl.

[Billigmeister]

No ideas for a name said:

Yes, but if I understand this right - the 11kW model isn't very useful.
If I get what you mean properly - you are specifying the VEHICLE with an 11kW on-board charger option in preference to a VEHICLE with a 7kW on-board charger.

So, unless you have 3 phase, you are stuffed and going to be limited to 3.6kW charging.

Previously I thought you were choosing an 11kW EVSE (which still wouldn't be a great idea).
It isn't all that clear, but it looks like Citroen aren't giving great advice. The average consumer isn't going to 'get' the detail until they are already committed and had their fingers burned.

Ahhh that is not what i thought.

I assumed that the 11kw on board charger would still be able to function okay on the 7kw supply.

Bugger. Bugger. Will need to check the paperwork to see what they have ordered...in fairness the sales guy didn't seem to be an expert in the electric side of things and assumed I had done me research

[No ideas for a name]

Billigmeister said:

Ahhh that is not what i thought.

I assumed that the 11kw on board charger would still be able to function okay on the 7kw supply.

Bugger. Bugger. Will need to check the paperwork to see what they have ordered...in fairness the sales guy didn't seem to be an expert in the electric side of things and assumed I had done me research

Check it before going all guns blazing - I might be an idiot and got the wrong idea.

It seems mad to me that the 11kW on board charger can't take 32A on one phase. Technically on the input side it should be little more than doubling the rating of 6 diodes. There could be another daft reason, maybe the 3 phase cable supplied is only good for 16A (the cable is 'programmed' for a maximum current), but that would be really stupid.

From https://ev-database.uk/car/1286/Citroen-e-C4#charg... it appears that the 11kW charger option does run at 7kW on single phase.

That differs from what FiF posted which he got from Citroen. That text is in the pdf brochure and seems pretty certain "Using this charger in conjunction with a single-phase power source will actually charge your vehicle more slowly than the standard 7 kW single-phase onboard charger."
Maybe checking with Citroen exactly what the charge rate would be on a single phase 7kW EVSE if you have the 11kW on board option.

As I said before, this really shouldn't be this hard. Even to those who are reasonably familiar with the terms and technology, it isn't 100% clear.

[FiF]

No ideas for a name said:

Billigmeister said:

Ahhh that is not what i thought.

I assumed that the 11kw on board charger would still be able to function okay on the 7kw supply.

Bugger. Bugger. Will need to check the paperwork to see what they have ordered...in fairness the sales guy didn't seem to be an expert in the electric side of things and assumed I had done me research

Check it before going all guns blazing - I might be an idiot and got the wrong idea.

It seems mad to me that the 11kW on board charger can't take 32A on one phase. Technically on the input side it should be little more than doubling the rating of 6 diodes. There could be another daft reason, maybe the 3 phase cable supplied is only good for 16A (the cable is 'programmed' for a maximum current), but that would be really stupid.

From https://ev-database.uk/car/1286/Citroen-e-C4#charg... it appears that the 11kW charger option does run at 7kW on single phase.

That differs from what FiF posted which he got from Citroen. That text is in the pdf brochure and seems pretty certain "Using this charger in conjunction with a single-phase power source will actually charge your vehicle more slowly than the standard 7 kW single-phase onboard charger."
Maybe checking with Citroen exactly what the charge rate would be on a single phase 7kW EVSE if you have the 11kW on board option.

As I said before, this really shouldn't be this hard. Even to those who are reasonably familiar with the terms and technology, it isn't 100% clear.

I think that's fair comment about checking with Citroen in a consultative manner rather than guns blazing, but it's clear to my mind that a discussion needs to be had. Certainly on various issues I haven't been impressed with the level of knowledge out in dealer network when asked anything above a run of the mill question from a punter who knows square root of not a lot about cars. Even when you've asked supposed technicians. Anyway good luck with that.

What's also clear in my mind is that a manufacturer wouldn't put that in a brochure and repeat it in the detailed specification and price list sheet if it wasn't true. Where does that database info come from? What does the latest information say, as that I received related to before the 2022MY which is presumably what has been ordered, perhaps an modification has been included in the latest model year. Question is that caveat still in the latest spec sheet? Answer, yes it is, for models manufactured after June 1 2022, exactly as quoted above.

Which leads to the question raised above, which is why exactly is that the case, and having got into this situation what's the best way out of it? Or even if there is actually a situation but thought it was only fair to raise the matter in case it is still an issue.

[Billigmeister]

Thanks for the input.

I have raised it with them for clarification, both in terms of my order (it doesn't specify on the order) and the latest technical guidance.

[thebraketester]

Ross. Just dropped your people an email for a quote. :thumbsup:

[Frimley111R]

thebraketester said:

Ross. Just dropped your people an email for a quote. :thumbsup:

[gmaz]

Looks like SyncEv have 2 different models on the market now

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/SyncEV/ind...

Seems a good price for a fully featured unit, but there are some poor reviews for customer service.

[Frimley111R]

gmaz said:

Looks like SyncEv have 2 different models on the market now

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/SyncEV/ind...

Seems a good price for a fully featured unit, but there are some poor reviews for customer service.

Yep, bought out for £10m a few months ago. The new owner seems to have developed their own charger oddly. Their mini charger is still easily the smallest on the market so we still fit that. The other tethered charger is better/nicer than the mini tethered though (although the Wallbox Pulsar looks nicer).

Manufacturers are dire for support. Most just never realised they would need to provide it and never geared up for it. SyncEV are getting more staff but when that will happen is anyone's guess. We get calls from frustrated customers complaining to us that they can't get through to manufacturers so we end up like their customer relations dept!

[CoupeKid]

I've been quoted circa £1200 (inc VAT) for a tethered Zavvi and a tethered Hypervolt.

No talk of government rebate.

It's quite a bit more than I was anticipating. Is it a reasonable quote?

Obviously I will get other quotes (including approaching Frimley111R's company) as they have a branch in the town where I live but it's the integration with solar panels that interests me.

[mikeiow]

CoupeKid said:

I've been quoted circa £1200 (inc VAT) for a tethered Zavvi and a tethered Hypervolt.

No talk of government rebate.

It's quite a bit more than I was anticipating. Is it a reasonable quote?

Obviously I will get other quotes (including approaching Frimley111R's company) as they have a branch in the town where I live but it's the integration with solar panels that interests me.

Well, the Zappi-2 list price is £799.....so someone is essentially charging £500 for what should be no more than 1 day to fit.
....but we are at an interesting time for these things (I'm including solar and home battery solutions) - demand is high, stock is low, and each installer can only do so many things, so they can charge perhaps 100-200 more than they might have done 2 years ago.

I suspect you are in the right ball-park, although I'd certainly hunt around to try to get it closer to £1k.

[No ideas for a name]

mikeiow said:

CoupeKid said:

I've been quoted circa £1200 (inc VAT) for a tethered Zavvi and a tethered Hypervolt.

No talk of government rebate.

It's quite a bit more than I was anticipating. Is it a reasonable quote?

Obviously I will get other quotes (including approaching Frimley111R's company) as they have a branch in the town where I live but it's the integration with solar panels that interests me.

Well, the Zappi-2 list price is £799.....so someone is essentially charging £500 for what should be no more than 1 day to fit.
....but we are at an interesting time for these things (I'm including solar and home battery solutions) - demand is high, stock is low, and each installer can only do so many things, so they can charge perhaps 100-200 more than they might have done 2 years ago.

I suspect you are in the right ball-park, although I'd certainly hunt around to try to get it closer to £1k.

I am not an installer, so not having a vested interest as such...

£1200 inc VAT does sound pricey.
A Zappi 2 can be had by the public for about £700. There really isn't much of significant cost in an EVSE... probably the most costly parts are the cable and connectors.

So, yes someone is charging about £500 to fit it.
There are other parts not just the EVSE. Breakers, cables, maybe earth rods etc.
What is a reasonable rate for a day's work for the electrician? Maybe £400 which would be £50 an hour... he has all the costs to come out of that such as running his van, tools and insurances etc.

Looks like the EVSE is the dominant cost in the job.
No one values trade's time and experience, but seem happy to pay a ridicuous price for basically simple hardware.

Edited by No ideas for a name on Thursday 4th August 22:42

[thebraketester]

I am looking to pay 1400ish all in for the Andersen because it's the only one that doesn't look like utter crap.

[LordGrover]

CoupeKid said:

I've been quoted circa £1200 (inc VAT) for a tethered Zavvi and a tethered Hypervolt.

No talk of government rebate.

It's quite a bit more than I was anticipating. Is it a reasonable quote?

Obviously I will get other quotes (including approaching Frimley111R's company) as they have a branch in the town where I live but it's the integration with solar panels that interests me.

Seems toppy compared to what I paid for hypervolt a year ago, but I got the OZEV grant and 'things' were different.

[Frimley111R]

I'm tempted to not go down this rabbit hole but for those of you saying that an EV charger should only cost 27p then consider this:

You need a qualified electrician to fit this. He will have paid for his training and further electrical training to keep up to date

• He is probably a member of NAPIT/NICEIC which is £450 a year

He needs tools and a van and fuel and insurance. And business insurance
He has to go and buy a charger and all the parts needed
He is installing something that, if he gets it wrong, could kill someone
He has to keep up to date with charger regulations as they change (next change in Sept)
He will have to certify the installation and register this
He will sit there and show a customer how to download and App and connect it to their charger etc which sometimes take half an hour

From a business viewpoint he will have to pay his accountant, be taxed on his earnings, market his business, deal with customer enquires from customers who know nothing about EV charging, deal with customers who are challenging, deal with warranty calls because manufacturers are shocking at supporting their products, deal with calls from customers who have forgotten that they set their charger to charge overnight and assume it has broken because it won't charge at 4pm...

Oh, and he doesn't get paid when he takes a day off or get paid when there's an economic downturn.

And it might be nice if he actually made a bit of profit to cover all this....

Still think they're ripping you off?

• He/She #becausewoke

[No ideas for a name]

Frimley111R said:

I'm tempted to not go down this rabbit hole but for those of you saying that an EV charger should only cost 27p then consider this:

For clarity - that is the gist of my point last night.
It isn't the cost of the fitting - which I think is fair... but there is definitely some margin in the devices themselves.


Another small issue is, in due course, all the AC chargers will become redundant. It can't be too far down the line that DC chargers become the norm. They are somewhat more complex, but with a lot more functionality. Obviously no-one is going to get much more than 20kW (single phase) domestically, but DC does allow V2G.

[C63sxb]

gmaz said:

Looks like SyncEv have 2 different models on the market now

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/SyncEV/ind...

Seems a good price for a fully featured unit, but there are some poor reviews for customer service.

These are junk, avoid. Won’t work with a BT router.

Tony in support knows sweet fa

Awful. We’ve been ripping them out, installing Easee’s and taking the hit.

[C63sxb]

Frimley111R said:

I'm tempted to not go down this rabbit hole but for those of you saying that an EV charger should only cost 27p then consider this:

You need a qualified electrician to fit this. He will have paid for his training and further electrical training to keep up to date

• He is probably a member of NAPIT/NICEIC which is £450 a year

He needs tools and a van and fuel and insurance. And business insurance
He has to go and buy a charger and all the parts needed
He is installing something that, if he gets it wrong, could kill someone
He has to keep up to date with charger regulations as they change (next change in Sept)
He will have to certify the installation and register this
He will sit there and show a customer how to download and App and connect it to their charger etc which sometimes take half an hour

From a business viewpoint he will have to pay his accountant, be taxed on his earnings, market his business, deal with customer enquires from customers who know nothing about EV charging, deal with customers who are challenging, deal with warranty calls because manufacturers are shocking at supporting their products, deal with calls from customers who have forgotten that they set their charger to charge overnight and assume it has broken because it won't charge at 4pm...

Oh, and he doesn't get paid when he takes a day off or get paid when there's an economic downturn.

And it might be nice if he actually made a bit of profit to cover all this....

Still think they're ripping you off?

• He/She #becausewoke

I employee quite a few sparks, we mainly do breakdown work. It currently costs me £290 a day to put a guy on the road….