Porsche Taycan - first 'drivers' EV?

[otolith]

UnderSteerD said:

otolith said:

There is no mechanical input between you and a modern ICE engine. The throttle generates a torque request which a computer manages the powertrain to meet.

Yes, thank you for that.

And when you consider the complexity and effectiveness of those computer calculations on an EV when compared with a modern ICE vehicle, it only further reinforces my point that "driver's car" and EV don't belong in the same sentence.

Edited by UnderSteerD on Wednesday 11th September 20:31

Eh? The EV control system is massively simpler than the powertrain control module in an ICE!

I think you are looking for explanations for a position which is basically irrational, emotional. It’s fine to say that you just don’t like the idea and don’t think you would enjoy it.

Personally, I think you could build an electric driver’s car far better than most cars on the market. The weight distribution could be excellent, the throttle response outstanding, and there’s no reason you couldn’t design the suspension and steering to be sublime. It could be rear drive only, it doesn’t need to use any fancy systems to optimise traction.

[UnderSteerD]

otolith said:

I think you are looking for explanations for a position which is basically irrational, emotional. It’s fine to say that you just don’t like the idea and don’t think you would enjoy it.

You've obviously missed the part where I said I have an EV (a Tesla Model 3 Performance) on its way to me.

[otolith]

UnderSteerD said:

You've obviously missed the part where I said I have an EV (a Tesla Model 3 Performance) on its way to me.

No, I noticed that, but there are other reasons to want one - and personally, if I wanted a driver’s car, I would not buy a saloon car. Not a Model 3 or an M3 or an RS4 or a Giulia.

[TheDeuce]

otolith said:

Eh? The EV control system is massively simpler than the powertrain control module in an ICE!

I think you are looking for explanations for a position which is basically irrational, emotional. It’s fine to say that you just don’t like the idea and don’t think you would enjoy it.

Personally, I think you could build an electric driver’s car far better than most cars on the market. The weight distribution could be excellent, the throttle response outstanding, and there’s no reason you couldn’t design the suspension and steering to be sublime. It could be rear drive only, it doesn’t need to use any fancy systems to optimise traction.

This is true. The key ingredients the engineers have spent decades extracting from ICE are all naturally present by default when you switch to electric.

It's not all rosy though.. the batteries at present are the achilles heel and hold back the pureness of ICE sports cars, because they're simply too big and heavy. Right now putting the batteries in the floor is a decent compromise, because the centre of gravity is excellent, yet the overall weight of the cars is unsatisfactory for a true drivers car.

The really huge step will be a shift to solid state batteries. At least twice the density (so half the weight) is already proven, charge times will be a fraction of what they are today and the lifespan of the cells will at worst outlive the car and in all probability outlive the owner. At that point, we will have EV's lighter and more powerful than an ICE car, with excellent range, super fast charging, a throttle response impossible with ICE, a perfect torque curve (or, line..), no heat management issues and endlessly useable.

There is today hundreds of billions of investment in solid state batteries and the first to bring them to mass market production will change the world. Your phone will last a week without charge and be slimmer, range anxiety will evaporate, solar energy storage will be simple and compact etc etc etc.

The EV evolution is driving the demand and limits of current batteries. It is that demand that is charging the need and value for the next generation of battery and of course, in the end that will come to fruition. The EV's today are all hamstrung by the limits of battery technology, but already they're good enough to justify the shortcomings. If anyone wants a better drivers car than has previously been possible with any fuel, the best way to help out is probably to buy a decent EV today and become part of the driving force that is giving the techies the motivation to get better batteries to market ASAP.

[otolith]

True, the weight is an issue - but the Elise based mk1 Tesla Roadster came in at 1300kg ten years ago. I’m sure that could be done better if a small sports car were designed to be electric from the ground up.

[TheDeuce]

otolith said:

True, the weight is an issue - but the Elise based mk1 Tesla Roadster came in at 1300kg ten years ago. I’m sure that could be done better if a small sports car were designed to be electric from the ground up.

Not really, battery tech hasn't moved on at all - at least not in a way we could describe as a 'new era'. Until solid state reaches mass production, the reality is that in order to give any EV a 200+ mile range, it has to be really heavy. It's not a question of evolution or r&d - it's just a basic fact, current batteries are far too heavy.

Literally nothing has changed in weight terms when it comes to power storage since Tesla began. There have been tweaks, Tesla have changed the composition slightly to give a better performing car battery solution, but in the end the barrier still exists. It's weight Vs range and performance.

Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 11th September 23:55

[RobDickinson]

Roughly 7% energy density improvement a year should mean half the weight battery in 10 years time.

This has been a pretty solid constant last 20 years or so.

[otolith]

TheDeuce said:

otolith said:

True, the weight is an issue - but the Elise based mk1 Tesla Roadster came in at 1300kg ten years ago. I’m sure that could be done better if a small sports car were designed to be electric from the ground up.

Not really, battery tech hasn't moved on at all - at least not in a way we could describe as a 'new era'. Until solid state reaches mass production, the reality is that in order to give any EV a 200+ mile range, it has to be really heavy. It's not a question of evolution or r&d - it's just a basic fact, current batteries are far too heavy.

Literally nothing has changed in weight terms when it comes to power storage since Tesla began. There have been tweaks, Tesla have changed the composition slightly to give a better performing car battery solution, but in the end the barrier still exists. It's weight Vs range and performance.

Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 11th September 23:55

I wasn’t really thinking about advances in tech, more that if you tried to build a small electric sports car from the ground up rather than stuffing electric gubbins into an Elise you would probably be able to do so more efficiently.

The battery upgrade Tesla offered in 2014 from 53kWh to 70kWh in the same packaging was claimed to be only “slightly” heavier, so I would assume that a new 53kWh battery in 2019 would be a bit lighter than the one they used in 2008.

[mids]

I scoffed when I heard that Tesla were going to try take on the Taycan with a Model S at the ring but having just watched their Laguna Seca lap with their Plaid powertrain....

https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/11719536468980121...

[Witchfinder]

On slick tyres, with loads of nonstandard aero.

[ajprice]

Started a thread for Tesla at Laguna Seca/Nurburgring https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[TheDeuce]

RobDickinson said:

Roughly 7% energy density improvement a year should mean half the weight battery in 10 years time.

This has been a pretty solid constant last 20 years or so.

It has been, for well over 20 years actually. The problem is that Li-ion, like most new technologies, was fairly crude initially, and as demand for quantity and efficiency of cells has increased, it has been improved - easy to do when demand = plenty of cash to find improvements.

Now though, despite more money than ever being poured in, the actual rate of improvement is relatively less than previously - the technology is effectively reaching it's potential and practical limitations. This has happened previously with other battery technologies, and each time as the limit is approached, a new technology has taken over and offered further scope for improvement. Right now, for the constant to remain, we kinda need solid state batteries that can be proven by design, and mass produced... So far, that hasn't happened. I'm sure various companies must be close, as the level of investment has seriously ramped up in the last few years and there have been working prototypes. It's very hard to guess when we might see anything usable though, the guys doing the R&D are in competition with one another so there isn't very much up to date info on progress made public.

[TheDeuce]

mids said:

I scoffed when I heard that Tesla were going to try take on the Taycan with a Model S at the ring but having just watched their Laguna Seca lap with their Plaid powertrain....

https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/11719536468980121...

I think it was fair to scoff on the assumption it would be (more or less) the Model S that we can buy today.

This is effectively the Roadster powertrain shoe-horned in to a model S - Impressive no doubt, but not really a comparison to the Taycan or any other EV that is currently in production. Having said that, this is a very cunning move by Elon. All that matters is a 'Model S' goes round faster than the Taycan, regardless of whether or not it demonstrates anything particularly relevant.

I really hope the Roadster is a proper drivers car when it is released though, as opposed to a quarter mile/EV muscle car etc.

[mids]

Well he's said it's a model S that's going into production next year so I think that's fair enough.

[TheDeuce]

otolith said:

I wasn’t really thinking about advances in tech, more that if you tried to build a small electric sports car from the ground up rather than stuffing electric gubbins into an Elise you would probably be able to do so more efficiently.

The battery upgrade Tesla offered in 2014 from 53kWh to 70kWh in the same packaging was claimed to be only “slightly” heavier, so I would assume that a new 53kWh battery in 2019 would be a bit lighter than the one they used in 2008.

53kw > 70kw is a third more storage, and subsequently approx a third heavier could be described as 'slightly' heavier I guess. To be fair there have been minor improvements to packaging and weight and they do all add up, I'm sure the increase in weight was less than the increase in capacity, relatively speaking.

So yes, if you built the original roadster equivalent today it would be a little better, and if it was built ground-up, quite a bit better I suspect, for various reasons. But in terms of the limits of power/capacity/weight and the effect on performance, there has been no significant improvement. With the next generation of battery tech however, the improvement will be night and day.

[TheDeuce]

mids said:

Well he's said it's a model S that's going into production next year so I think that's fair enough.

That does make it fair enough - assuming it's not also very heavily modified for this track, to a point that we will never be able to buy the same car with the same abilities.

It also gives everyone else in the EV game time to think about how to come back with better too. Which honestly, is great - it's these battles that are pushing the industry forward and providing some amazing cars as a result

I have to maintain though that unless the new Model S is available with far bigger brakes and better chassis/steering control than the current one, it's still not going to be a real drivers car. Not that it should be, it doesn't need to be.

[otolith]

TheDeuce said:

53kw > 70kw is a third more storage, and subsequently approx a third heavier could be described as 'slightly' heavier I guess. To be fair there have been minor improvements to packaging and weight and they do all add up, I'm sure the increase in weight was less than the increase in capacity, relatively speaking.

They aren't precise on the energy upgrade, it may be closer to 40% - but claiming a 30%-40% increase in battery weight was "slight" would seem a bit cheeky even for Tesla. The original battery weighs 450kg, so it would be 135kg-180kg, all other things being equal.

"Upgrade your Roadster to a battery that stores roughly 40% more energy than the original battery. There is a slight increase in the battery weight but the total range increases over 35% from the original Roadster."

Cramming another 135kg-180kg of weight into the same size pack also makes me raise my eyebrows.

[Witchfinder]

mids said:

Well he's said it's a model S that's going into production next year so I think that's fair enough.

Elon Musk says a lot of things. Like "funding secured" for example, or accusing people of being a paedophile. I would take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

[mids]

Pfffft, Do you think there's anyone on this entire section of PH that isn't aware of that?

Doesn't stop us discussing it though does it?

[Durzel]

Every manufacturer tweaks their car for the Ring. Why wouldn't they?