Porsche Taycan - first 'drivers' EV?
Discussion
RDMcG said:
Lost their sound though
Loved the car but the entire livestream was a shambles haha!!Started with a voice over a video that already had a voice over... ummm.. OK. Then different languages spoken at once in places, even though the stream was split into different language versions, so that was just plain weird.
Several video freezes, delays and twice the sound dropped out. A complete mess. Whoever did the production is going to be a hot water I think..
Gorgeous car though, it was worth it!
TheDeuce said:
It already has left the Tesla behind - they've focussed on the entire performance package which is why they managed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg&fe... Which is frankly staggering and well worth a watch if you have 7 minutes and 42 seconds to spare 
No Tesla is going to get close to that anytime soon! Within 8 miles of hard driving the Tesla has to limit it's power to avoid overheating, and beyond 10 miles hard driving the limit is extreme - hence, I think around 10 minutes is about as good as the Tesla's have managed at the Nurburgring. And to be honest, even before the performance limiter kicks in, a Model S isn't getting around the Nurburgring anything like as fast as the Taycan. The Model S just isn't built for performance from the ground up.
Obviously, it's a £140k sportscar not a £90k large exec? I struggle with why they are even being compared TBH as have very different design briefs.No Tesla is going to get close to that anytime soon! Within 8 miles of hard driving the Tesla has to limit it's power to avoid overheating, and beyond 10 miles hard driving the limit is extreme - hence, I think around 10 minutes is about as good as the Tesla's have managed at the Nurburgring. And to be honest, even before the performance limiter kicks in, a Model S isn't getting around the Nurburgring anything like as fast as the Taycan. The Model S just isn't built for performance from the ground up.
I'd have one in a heartbeat if practical enough, but will have to stick with the far more affordable Model 3 P for now. Maybe in a few years.
oop north said:
Edited to add - I was very surprised to see on here the negativity towards the Taycan compared to Tesla.
What negativity?The Taycan looks great, but I've just speced the cheapest one for a cool £125k, the Model S we ordered before the X was £56k.
Sadly what we really need is cheaper EVs, not another toy for the mega rich, much like how the 'P' Tesla's have little relevance to most people shopping for a new car.
Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 4th September 18:46
gangzoom said:
What negativity?
The Taycan looks great, but I've just speced the cheapest one for a cool £125k, the Model S we ordered before the X was £56k.
Sadly what we really need is cheaper EVs, not another toy for the mega rich, much like how the 'P' Tesla's have little relevance to most people shopping for a new car.
This is hardly a toy for the mega rich... Those such cars are £1m+ these days, which IS crazy.The Taycan looks great, but I've just speced the cheapest one for a cool £125k, the Model S we ordered before the X was £56k.
Sadly what we really need is cheaper EVs, not another toy for the mega rich, much like how the 'P' Tesla's have little relevance to most people shopping for a new car.
Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 4th September 18:46
Actually for company car drivers this car, or the Model S is a bit of a bargain. There is as of April next year zero company car tax for bEV's, so in a way these cars are cheaper than a Prius... Obviously the lease cost will still be around £1000 per month, but for a higher rate tax payer they can't get that money out the company any other way without paying around 50% tax and NI, so these cars are in fact £500 a month through a company...
This is done of course to get Britain up to speed with EV's, and it will certainly work.
TheDeuce said:
This is hardly a toy for the mega rich... Those such cars are £1m+ these days, which IS crazy.
Actually for company car drivers this car, or the Model S is a bit of a bargain. There is as of April next year zero company car tax for bEV's, so in a way these cars are cheaper than a Prius... Obviously the lease cost will still be around £1000 per month, but for a higher rate tax payer they can't get that money out the company any other way without paying around 50% tax and NI, so these cars are in fact £500 a month through a company...
This is done of course to get Britain up to speed with EV's, and it will certainly work.
There are less than 1m company car drivers paying BIK. They change their cars every 3-4 years.Actually for company car drivers this car, or the Model S is a bit of a bargain. There is as of April next year zero company car tax for bEV's, so in a way these cars are cheaper than a Prius... Obviously the lease cost will still be around £1000 per month, but for a higher rate tax payer they can't get that money out the company any other way without paying around 50% tax and NI, so these cars are in fact £500 a month through a company...
This is done of course to get Britain up to speed with EV's, and it will certainly work.
So at best, maybe 300,000 company cars per year; they won’t all go EV, as many Company cars are pretty low priced and many companies won’t pay the prices being asked for premium EVs. I doubt that more than a large minority will go EV, maybe 25% of them.
So, in round numbers, at best, BIK paying Company cars are maybe 10% of UK sales.
If they all went EV it would be significant, though not majorly so. But they won’t so it may not be that significant at all.
I very much doubt that it will ‘get Britain up to speed with EVs’ in any meaningful way.
IMO.
TheDeuce said:
Obviously the lease cost will still be around £1000 per month
I think your find very few people actually have £1000/month to spend on a car, you might, but the vast majority of people don't, even £500/month is a stretch for most to waste on any car. The Taycan to the majority of the UK car buying public might as well be £1million+.I love what Porsche is doing, as ultimately what happens at Porsche drip down into the rest of the VAG group, but lets not pretend the Taycan is the mass market car to change EV ownership.
REALIST123 said:
There are less than 1m company car drivers paying BIK. They change their cars every 3-4 years.
So at best, maybe 300,000 company cars per year; they won’t all go EV, as many Company cars are pretty low priced and many companies won’t pay the prices being asked for premium EVs. I doubt that more than a large minority will go EV, maybe 25% of them.
So, in round numbers, at best, BIK paying Company cars are maybe 10% of UK sales.
If they all went EV it would be significant, though not majorly so. But they won’t so it may not be that significant at all.
I very much doubt that it will ‘get Britain up to speed with EVs’ in any meaningful way.
IMO.
Your figures though are based on the current number of company car drivers - with the way company car drivers have been progressively squeezed by HMRC over the years, it long ago stopped being an attractive perk for most people. Instead, most of the remaining company car drivers on the road actually need their car to complete their work.So at best, maybe 300,000 company cars per year; they won’t all go EV, as many Company cars are pretty low priced and many companies won’t pay the prices being asked for premium EVs. I doubt that more than a large minority will go EV, maybe 25% of them.
So, in round numbers, at best, BIK paying Company cars are maybe 10% of UK sales.
If they all went EV it would be significant, though not majorly so. But they won’t so it may not be that significant at all.
I very much doubt that it will ‘get Britain up to speed with EVs’ in any meaningful way.
IMO.
The change to BIK rules though suddenly reverse that trend. For the next maybe 3-4 years, owning an EV as a company car becomes a massive perk. So we can expect many company owners to decide they now need a company car again. And I also think we will see some companies decide to offer some of their staff an EV company car as a good value way of retaining their key people.
REALIST123 said:
There are less than 1m company car drivers paying BIK. They change their cars every 3-4 years.
So at best, maybe 300,000 company cars per year; they won’t all go EV, as many Company cars are pretty low priced and many companies won’t pay the prices being asked for premium EVs. I doubt that more than a large minority will go EV, maybe 25% of them.
So, in round numbers, at best, BIK paying Company cars are maybe 10% of UK sales.
If they all went EV it would be significant, though not majorly so. But they won’t so it may not be that significant at all.
I very much doubt that it will ‘get Britain up to speed with EVs’ in any meaningful way.
IMO.
Hi from the F1 forums So at best, maybe 300,000 company cars per year; they won’t all go EV, as many Company cars are pretty low priced and many companies won’t pay the prices being asked for premium EVs. I doubt that more than a large minority will go EV, maybe 25% of them.
So, in round numbers, at best, BIK paying Company cars are maybe 10% of UK sales.
If they all went EV it would be significant, though not majorly so. But they won’t so it may not be that significant at all.
I very much doubt that it will ‘get Britain up to speed with EVs’ in any meaningful way.
IMO.
I don't disagree with the maths, I'll accept you know your numbers. But it is clearly designed to have an effect, it's a massive tax break. It's also one I think designed for people such as myself and my business partner that operate their own business, and would love an expensive car to suddenly become effectively half price - which is what zero BIK achieves.
The thing is, I'm on the outside of the statistics you quote - there has been for many years no benefit in getting a company car, the general accountants advice is that it's better to pay for the car privately and claim mileage for work miles - this new BIK rate changes that massively. The new rates are the only reason I'm shopping for an EV to be honest. There are easily 1m+ micro businesses in the UK who are operated by people that have had no reason to get themselves a car through the company, but this really does change that. Obviously not all will take Tesla's and Porsche's, but they can take a far cheaper EV and almost get a free car - given that all related expenses can go through the company, vat is reclaimed and they won't pay a penny in tax for the cost of the car for a year, then just 1%, then 2%, then hand it back and look for the next tax efficient solution...
Back in the days when company cars were tax efficient they were far more prevalent - millions of jobs had a package that included a car, it was almost normal in many industries. That has since changed, but this zero BIK is blatantly an effort to get those that can back in to an company car, so long as it's EV over the next few years to boost the numbers on the road. There is no other reason why they would slash tax to zero on anything!
gangzoom said:
I think your find very few people actually have £1000/month to spend on a car, you might, but the vast majority of people don't, even £500/month is a stretch for most to waste on any car. The Taycan to the majority of the UK car buying public might as well be £1million+.
I love what Porsche is doing, as ultimately what happens at Porsche drip down into the rest of the VAG group, but lets not pretend the Taycan is the mass market car to change EV ownership.
No, it's a mass market performance EV car, that is all I have said, and I stand by that. The only other performance bred EV's are astonishingly expensive.I love what Porsche is doing, as ultimately what happens at Porsche drip down into the rest of the VAG group, but lets not pretend the Taycan is the mass market car to change EV ownership.
I agree with the rest - we're all early adopters right now and the fact of the matter is that an extremely affordable EV could be produced that will still have the ability to slam you into the seat when you put your foot down, that's what electric motors can do.
As for £500 p/m being a waste for a brand new Porsche with £600hp... C'mon.. The fact for many that's not affordable doesn't make it a waste at all. It's clearly a fantastic deal for those that can. Try and find a none EV brand new 600hp car for less p/m!?
RobDickinson said:
Porsche sell 5-10k Panamera a year in Europe, this will sell better and they are only doing what 20k a year so there will be a queue for them.
The Panamera will surely be killed off soon. It's an ugly thing that exists in a shrinking market segment. I think Porsche will respond to demand for the Taycan and increase production - they are already talking of a shooting brake version which in effect is a Panamera in EV form pretty much, so they at some point I suspect this will replace the Panamera and that will be the end of that.Right now they're not going to talk about the future potential production rate because right now they're getting people to rush to sign on the line so they don't have to wait years to get the car. Once that rush is over, I fully expect that like most marques they will want to increase EV production and decrease ICE production in phased shifts - they have too really, the future is EV, they have to get more lines churning them out.
gangzoom said:
The Taycan looks great, but I've just speced the cheapest one for a cool £125k, the Model S we ordered before the X was £56k.
Right, but until recently the Model S P100DL was North of 100k, and the cheapest Model S you can order today is 77k.If I had that kind of money, I wouldn't be sinking £92,000 into a Performance Model S, I'd be ordering the Taycan and paying the extra. I expect the residuals will be phenomenal, and the quality second to none.
RobDickinson said:
OK looks like for a £45k pa (1/3rd the vehicle cost) earner a Panamera turbo (£130k) would cost you ~£17,500 or so a year in BIk tax :O
Exactly!! And the Taycan would cost you... bugger all year one, and then a almost bugger all year 2 & 3!This is why I'm not wrong to say it's 'cheap', relatively speaking. Admittedly a Tesla Model S is even cheaper... and some EV's with the new BIK become laughably cheap.
Witchfinder said:
Right, but until recently the Model S P100DL was North of 100k, and the cheapest Model S you can order today is 77k.
If I had that kind of money, I wouldn't be sinking £92,000 into a Performance Model S, I'd be ordering the Taycan and paying the extra. I expect the residuals will be phenomenal, and the quality second to none.
it depends what kid of car you want.If I had that kind of money, I wouldn't be sinking £92,000 into a Performance Model S, I'd be ordering the Taycan and paying the extra. I expect the residuals will be phenomenal, and the quality second to none.
The £77k model S has a WLTP of 375 miles and far far more storage and the best charging network, and is plenty fast enough and built well enough (yes not as good as the Porsche..)
The porker will be a better drive I am sure.
RobDickinson said:
it depends what kid of car you want.
The £77k model S has a WLTP of 375 miles and far far more storage and the best charging network, and is plenty fast enough and built well enough (yes not as good as the Porsche..)
The porker will be a better drive I am sure.
It's not all about how fast though... For many drivers that would even consider such expensive cars, the driving experience is extremely important. I have driven a Model S and to be fair, it was far better than I expected - it's actually an above average all round well sorted car. But it's not a performance focused drivers car in a few important areas, and of course, the Porsche definitely is. Even I didn't expect it to go round the ring as quickly as it has though, that is truly impressive. Only a proper sports car could do such a time, and Tesla, even with the upcoming roadster, show no signs of making such a dynamically excellent sports car. Probably not least because their primary market is North America and they simply want different things from their 'sports' cars. They want the wallop in the back when you floor it, the Tesla does that! Then they want space, comfort, and powerful A/C. And driver aids, anything to relieve stress - the Tesla definitely has that. But to go fast on track or in the real world, or to feel connected to the road, you need so much more than acceleration alone.The £77k model S has a WLTP of 375 miles and far far more storage and the best charging network, and is plenty fast enough and built well enough (yes not as good as the Porsche..)
The porker will be a better drive I am sure.
Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 4th September 21:55
TheDeuce said:
REALIST123 said:
There are less than 1m company car drivers paying BIK. They change their cars every 3-4 years.
So at best, maybe 300,000 company cars per year; they won’t all go EV, as many Company cars are pretty low priced and many companies won’t pay the prices being asked for premium EVs. I doubt that more than a large minority will go EV, maybe 25% of them.
So, in round numbers, at best, BIK paying Company cars are maybe 10% of UK sales.
If they all went EV it would be significant, though not majorly so. But they won’t so it may not be that significant at all.
I very much doubt that it will ‘get Britain up to speed with EVs’ in any meaningful way.
IMO.
Hi from the F1 forums So at best, maybe 300,000 company cars per year; they won’t all go EV, as many Company cars are pretty low priced and many companies won’t pay the prices being asked for premium EVs. I doubt that more than a large minority will go EV, maybe 25% of them.
So, in round numbers, at best, BIK paying Company cars are maybe 10% of UK sales.
If they all went EV it would be significant, though not majorly so. But they won’t so it may not be that significant at all.
I very much doubt that it will ‘get Britain up to speed with EVs’ in any meaningful way.
IMO.
I don't disagree with the maths, I'll accept you know your numbers. But it is clearly designed to have an effect, it's a massive tax break. It's also one I think designed for people such as myself and my business partner that operate their own business, and would love an expensive car to suddenly become effectively half price - which is what zero BIK achieves.
The thing is, I'm on the outside of the statistics you quote - there has been for many years no benefit in getting a company car, the general accountants advice is that it's better to pay for the car privately and claim mileage for work miles - this new BIK rate changes that massively. The new rates are the only reason I'm shopping for an EV to be honest. There are easily 1m+ micro businesses in the UK who are operated by people that have had no reason to get themselves a car through the company, but this really does change that. Obviously not all will take Tesla's and Porsche's, but they can take a far cheaper EV and almost get a free car - given that all related expenses can go through the company, vat is reclaimed and they won't pay a penny in tax for the cost of the car for a year, then just 1%, then 2%, then hand it back and look for the next tax efficient solution...
Back in the days when company cars were tax efficient they were far more prevalent - millions of jobs had a package that included a car, it was almost normal in many industries. That has since changed, but this zero BIK is blatantly an effort to get those that can back in to an company car, so long as it's EV over the next few years to boost the numbers on the road. There is no other reason why they would slash tax to zero on anything!
I can though think of a few reasons why they might slash this tax. One being that ‘they’ can then crow about what they’re doing to support their green commitment without actually giving too much up.
The thing is that we all agree that once there’s been a big swing to EV HMRC will be grabbing this tax back, so how long it will last is anybody’s guess!
It’s an interesting discussion. Another factor is that, in the UK, a lot of Company cars are low list price, probably below £20k.
The most popular is the Fiesta. In the top 5 are the Mini, Focus, Astra and Aygo.
How would the cost of say, an i3 or even a Leaf without BIK compare to a Fiesta with? Enough of an advantage to cause a rush to change?
Whatever happens, I doubt that Porsche will be looking to the UK CC market to secure their future but it will be interesting to find out!
TheDeuce said:
RobDickinson said:
it depends what kid of car you want.
The £77k model S has a WLTP of 375 miles and far far more storage and the best charging network, and is plenty fast enough and built well enough (yes not as good as the Porsche..)
The porker will be a better drive I am sure.
It's not all about how fast though... For many drivers that would even consider such expensive cars, the driving experience is extremely important. I have driven a Model S and to be fair, it was far better than I expected - it's actually an above average all round well sorted car. But it's not a performance focused drivers car in a few important areas, and of course, the Porsche definitely is. Even I didn't expect it to go round the ring as quickly as it has though, that is truly impressive. Only a proper sports car could do such a time, and Tesla, even with the upcoming roadster, show no signs of making such a dynamically excellent sports car.The £77k model S has a WLTP of 375 miles and far far more storage and the best charging network, and is plenty fast enough and built well enough (yes not as good as the Porsche..)
The porker will be a better drive I am sure.
TBH I doubt many taycan ever do either, its like the SUV craze, large and rugged for no reason other than the supermarket car park.
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