Do BEV's actually save you money currently?

[kambites]

HalcyonRichard said:

kambites said:

I run both of our cars, which have a combined mileage of about 12k, for less than that. If you run a car which is old enough for depreciation to be a non-issue, £270 a month is quite a lot to spend!

But there must be some depreciation and costs in service / repair tyres, brakes oil change .....etc. And at 12,000 miles/year fuel must cost a quite a bit. And running a car must include ALL costs.

Of course there are costs, I'm not saying you can run a car for free!

[SWoll]

kambites said:

SWoll said:

Go on then. 12k miles a year including fuel, insurance (inc tyres), VED, maintenance and depreciation.

I run both of our cars, which have a combined mileage of about 12k, for less than that. If you run a car which is old enough for depreciation to be a non-issue, £270 a month is quite a lot to spend!

So how you spend a lot less... well it depends on where you're doing the miles but if they're mostly motorway 60mpg isn't unrealistic out of a 15 year old diesel; insurance... well I insure my Elise for £150 a year so I reckon I could insure an old diesel for £10 a month. Servicing... you can get a oil and filter change done for £50 if you shop around; another £50 for the MoT; so that's £100 a year. Tyres, maybe £100 a set for part-worn budgets and they should do 30k miles of that sort of driving on that sort of car so that's 30 months or around £3.50 a month. Tax, I don't know what old diesels are taxed at and it can't be more than £20 a month?

I'm not saying I'd want to run a car like that, but very many people do!

Edited by kambites on Friday 13th September 21:06

You need to use realistic figures.

Surely you appreciate that a combination of 60MPG, £20 a month insurance, zero depreciation and part worn tyres isn't representative of 99.99% of car owners?

[kambites]

SWoll said:

Surely you appreciate that a combination of 60MPG, £20 a month insurance, zero depreciation and part worn tyres isn't representative of 99.99% of car owners?

I made no claim that it was, I said it was possible to run a car for considerably less than that. I think you underestimate just how many people do run cars like that though. Obviously it's not 99.99% of the population, but I'd say it's probably 10-20%.

If we're playing the "normal" card, the vast majority of people don't do 12k miles a year either; the average in the UK is around 7k now and the median is well below that mean. Of course the average for a city car like the Zoe will be far lower than that again.

Some people on PH seem to have a somewhat twisted idea of what constitutes a really "cheap" car!

ETA: As I said I think it's good value for a hassle free newish car if you want a little supermini; especially if you intend to do 12k miles a year in it! Our next family car will almost certainly be electric, they're fantastic value comparing like for like for someone like me who buys cars to run into the ground.

Edited by kambites on Friday 13th September 21:33

[Bodo]

I read this yesterday at work: total cost of ownership per month compared between engine concepts per country in Europe.



Some further explanation here (including an English text graphic): https://www.leaseplan.com/-/media/leaseplan-digita...

BEVs are never the cheapest option, even though electricity could be cheaper than fuel, and maintenance is a lot lower. However, how long will the battery last? A spare one for a BEV Smart costs €17k. Makes you think what the effect is on the used car market, especially for BEV older than seven years.

[Otispunkmeyer]

kambites said:

HalcyonRichard said:

Even bangernomics would find it hard to beat.

It's good for a new(ish) car, but you can run an older car for a lot less than that.

Used Prius might do it.?.. mine costs about 9 ppm in fuel. Tax = free, insurance is <£300, and it needs a set of tyres every 18months and service is £<100 of you do it yourself. I do about 1500mi a month.

Did cost £8k upfront though. Not sure what it’s worth now, maybe £6k? After 2 years.

Probably quite close actually...

[HalcyonRichard]

Bodo said:

BEVs are never the cheapest option

The cheapest of the cheapest in that report is the total cost of ownership very minimum is over 400 Euro a month (Romania). But Evezy quotes one as £289/month. But that report uses average costs. This does not give any minimum costs.

[Mr E]

The cheap used leaf is a st ton cheaper to run than the alternative.

The alternative is a thumping great V8, but I am that kind of idiot.

[coetzeeh]

Dave Hedgehog said:

coetzeeh said:

I see random posts about EV's being quicker - and often compared to RS4, C63, M3 and so on.

The new Electric Porsche's time around the N'ring is 10 seconds slower than the Alfa QF.

Unfortunately I’m not a racing driver and I don’t commute on a race track

yeah, and neither can you commute fast off the race track

[anonymous-user]

Bodo said:

However, how long will the battery last? A spare one for a BEV Smart costs €17k. Makes you think what the effect is on the used car market, especially for BEV older than seven years.

Can we please not do this every time!



The battery in an EV wears out as you use it.

just like,


The powertrain in an ICE wears out every time you use it.



There is NO difference, which is why a 10 year old, 150,000 mile car is effectively worthless.

Actually of course, there IS a difference, namely the state of health of the EVs battery is explicitly recorded and can be interogated by any buyer, so you can see exactly what you are buying. With an ICE, you look at it, start it, maybe rev it and look for smoke, perhaps even take the coolant header tank cap off and check for oil in the coolant, but really, you know nothing about the level of wear, which is why buying a second hand car is considered risky by many people.

[Bodo]

HalcyonRichard said:

Bodo said:

BEVs are never the cheapest option

The cheapest of the cheapest in that report is the total cost of ownership very minimum is over 400 Euro a month (Romania). But Evezy quotes one as £289/month. But that report uses average costs. This does not give any minimum costs.

I'm referring only to that study; and I am comparing the cost within single countries. If you want benchmark this particular study with other sources, you would also compare the criteria and derivation of the given figures.

[Bodo]

Max_Torque said:

Bodo said:

However, how long will the battery last? A spare one for a BEV Smart costs €17k. Makes you think what the effect is on the used car market, especially for BEV older than seven years.

Can we please not do this every time!



The battery in an EV wears out as you use it.

just like,


The powertrain in an ICE wears out every time you use it.



There is NO difference, which is why a 10 year old, 150,000 mile car is effectively worthless.

Actually of course, there IS a difference, namely the state of health of the EVs battery is explicitly recorded and can be interogated by any buyer, so you can see exactly what you are buying. With an ICE, you look at it, start it, maybe rev it and look for smoke, perhaps even take the coolant header tank cap off and check for oil in the coolant, but really, you know nothing about the level of wear, which is why buying a second hand car is considered risky by many people.

I agree with your comparison while I won't make a prediction. Just await how the market develops - could even have a significant difference to the assumptions of the publisher of the study.

[kambites]

Right now EV residuals are weird; leases are sky high compared to conventional cars but actual residuals are extremely strong.

When we go down the EV route we'll certainly be buying outright unless the market changes dramatically.

Edited by kambites on Friday 13th September 22:34

[HalcyonRichard]

Bodo said:

I'm referring only to that study; and I am comparing the cost within single countries. If you want benchmark this particular study with other sources, you would also compare the criteria and derivation of the given figures.

That study only deals with averages. We are discussing the minimum. Chalk and cheese.

[Bodo]

HalcyonRichard said:

Bodo said:

I'm referring only to that study; and I am comparing the cost within single countries. If you want benchmark this particular study with other sources, you would also compare the criteria and derivation of the given figures.

That study only deals with averages. We are discussing the minimum. Chalk and cheese.

Speak for yourself. You're discussing the minimum. I'm quoting data from the single source.

[SWoll]

kambites said:

Right now EV residuals are weird; leases are sky high compared to conventional cars but actual residuals are extremely strong.

When we go down the EV route we'll certainly be buying outright unless the market changes dramatically.

Edited by kambites on Friday 13th September 22:34

Or renting from EVEZY.

Sky high? Depends what you are looking at.

Jag i-Pace is cheaper to lease than a 2.0d R-Sport F-Pace
Model 3 Performance is almost half the cost the RS4 was when it launched and still £3-400 cheaper now.
E-Golf is currently the same price as a 2.0TDI Match

Prices are falling all the time as residuals improve.

[kambites]

I meant at the affordable end of the market. You can lease a Golf for, what, £200 a month. Where's the family EV leases for the same?

As you say though they'll come in time.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 08:35

[Mr E]

kambites said:

I meant at the affordable end of the market. You can lease a Golf for, what, £200 a month. Where's the family EV leases for the same?

As you say though they'll come in time.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 08:35

My 2 year old leaf was sub £140 a month. No deposit.

[HalcyonRichard]

kambites said:

I meant at the affordable end of the market. You can lease a Golf for, what, £200 a month. Where's the family EV leases for the same?

As you say though they'll come in time.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 08:35

There are those deals around. But only if you include the total cost. That £200/month does not include fuel,insurance,sevicing,tyres,brakes etc
Family sized cars like the Leaf or Ioniq are available from https://www.evezy.co.uk/electric-cars/ from £349 / month

So if fuel,insurance,servicing,wear and tear etc come in at more than £150/month then the effective lease cost would be below £200/month with no long term commitment.

[SWoll]

kambites said:

I meant at the affordable end of the market. You can lease a Golf for, what, £200 a month. Where's the family EV leases for the same?

As you say though they'll come in time.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 08:35

The E-Golf which costs exactly the same as a 2.0TDI Match as mentioned above (<£250 a month)?

HalcyonRichard said:

There are those deals around. But only if you include the total cost. That £200/month does not include fuel,insurance,sevicing,tyres,brakes etc
Family sized cars like the Leaf or Ioniq are available from https://www.evezy.co.uk/electric-cars/ from £349 / month

So if fuel,insurance,servicing,wear and tear etc come in at more than £150/month then the effective lease cost would be below £200/month with no long term commitment.

The £200 a month Golf will also be on a 5k per year deal compared to 12k with EVEZY.

Edited by SWoll on Saturday 14th September 09:02

[kambites]

SWoll said:

The E-Golf which costs exactly the same as a 2.0TDI Match as mentioned above (<£250 a month)?

Appologies, I meant to say family EVs with sensible ranges; the Golf is probably a decent car for city driving but a ~100 mile motorway range is a serious issue for many people. Hopefully the ID3 will be available with the mid-range battery pack for <£300 a month overall with a reasonable mileage allowance. We'll see.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 09:16