Do BEV's actually save you money currently?
Discussion
kambites said:
SWoll said:
The E-Golf which costs exactly the same as a 2.0TDI Match as mentioned above (<£250 a month)?
Appologies, I meant to say family EVs with sensible ranges; the Golf is probably a decent car for city driving but a ~100 mile motorway range is a serious issue for many people. Not suggesting it will suit everyone, but a range of 125-150 miles will be absolutely fine for the majority of people and 99%+ of journeys.
SWoll said:
Not suggesting it will suit everyone, but a range of 125-150 miles will be absolutely fine for the majority of people and 99%+ of journeys.
Yup, the question is whether the general buying public are willing to suffer the inconvenience on the remaining 1% and I think thus far the indications seem to be that they are not - eGolfs are hardly flying out of the showrooms. For us, an EV with a real world range of 200+ miles would be an absolute no-brainer for a family car compared to a petrol (I'd never buy a diesel) but anything less than about 150 in worst-case conditions starts to be an issue often enough to put me off unless it's considerably cheaper overall, which they are not (yet). Given that I'm not averse to buying second-hand, the relatively expensive lease deals and relatively high residuals creates something of a conundrum.
If I could lease an e-Niro for £250 or even £300 a month, I'd serious consider it but they seem to be £400+.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 09:23
kambites said:
SWoll said:
Not suggesting it will suit everyone, but a range of 125-150 miles will be absolutely fine for the majority of people and 99%+ of journeys.
Yup, the question is whether the general buying public are willing to suffer the inconvenience on the remaining 1% and I think thus far the indications seem to be that they are not - eGolfs are hardly flying out of the showrooms. My FIL covers about 12k miles per year in his car at 40MPG costing him £150 a month in fuel. He's currently looking for a car in the £40k region so suggested a Model 3 SR+. His answer "No good as wouldn't manage the trip to Dorset we do twice a year". FYI that trip is <150 miles, he would pass numerous supercharger sites on the way (Gordano, Exeter), their's destination charging near where they stop and he always has a break for 30 minutes around Bristol to stretch his legs, have a pee and a coffee anyway.
Still won't even consider the idea despite having off road parking so charging at home would be easy..
There's certainly a large element of fear of change and lack of understanding of one's own usage cycles.
Realistically we could live with a 120-130 mile real-world range but it would be an inconvenience a handful of times a year. Give us a 200 mile range and it would in every way be more convenient than an ICE. The question is how much that extra convenience is worth.
Realistically we could live with a 120-130 mile real-world range but it would be an inconvenience a handful of times a year. Give us a 200 mile range and it would in every way be more convenient than an ICE. The question is how much that extra convenience is worth.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 11:21
kambites said:
Appologies, I meant to say family EVs with sensible ranges; the Golf is probably a decent car for city driving but a ~100 mile motorway range is a serious issue for many people. Hopefully the ID3 will be available with the mid-range battery pack for <£300 a month overall with a reasonable mileage allowance. We'll see.
Make your mind up... a few post back you were arguing (to suit your own argument) that the average mileage of a car is now 7000 miles per annum (which equates to under 20 miles per day), but you are now arguing (again to suit your own argument) that 100 miles range is not sufficient.The simple reality is that EV is here to stay, and there will be significant increases in the number of vehicles on the road in the next 6 months due to nothing more than the governments decision to cut BIK to 0% next year (and then 1% & 2% the subsequent years). This is obviously mainly aimed at business vehicles, but no doubt they account for a significant amount of the market, and will be people who generally have a budget of £350.00 upwards (exclusive of VAT).
I've just ordered an E-Tron. Its an 80k car, but the rental is under £500.00 per month (on a 3+23 basis, 10000 miles per annum). That's a total cost over 2 years to me of £13,000.00. Please advise where I can go buy new one of these cars (or an equivalent petrol X5, X6, RR,RRS, Q7, Q8, etc, etc) for less money than that over the same period. I'm all ears ….
From previous thread:
Commercial is best use for them for me, the ENV200 saved us stupid amounts of money as a high mile local(ish) vehicle.
ENV200 over 88k: Tyres 8.
'Servicing' - none, decided not to bother, no issues.
Android head unit to replace rubbish nissan one: £220 (fit it myself)
Electricity cost: None(ish) (local free chargers, van parked at them over night and during the day - not blocking, 20 of them) Paid to charge it maybe 10 times in emergency at rapids, probably cost £10.
Van cost £8999 inc vat Ex demo @ 1000 miles (hahaha, just before the EV boom).
Train ticket to collect van from Liverpool: £65
As a result of this we were able to undercut our competition and get a lot more business.
Amazing.
Commercial is best use for them for me, the ENV200 saved us stupid amounts of money as a high mile local(ish) vehicle.
ENV200 over 88k: Tyres 8.
'Servicing' - none, decided not to bother, no issues.
Android head unit to replace rubbish nissan one: £220 (fit it myself)
Electricity cost: None(ish) (local free chargers, van parked at them over night and during the day - not blocking, 20 of them) Paid to charge it maybe 10 times in emergency at rapids, probably cost £10.
Van cost £8999 inc vat Ex demo @ 1000 miles (hahaha, just before the EV boom).
Train ticket to collect van from Liverpool: £65
As a result of this we were able to undercut our competition and get a lot more business.
Amazing.
Hobo said:
Make your mind up... a few post back you were arguing (to suit your own argument) that the average mileage of a car is now 7000 miles per annum (which equates to under 20 miles per day), but you are now arguing (again to suit your own argument) that 100 miles range is not sufficient.
I fail to see the contradiction. People don't do the same number of miles every day.I'm not arguing against EVs at all. Our next car will undoubtedly be one.
Hobo said:
). That's a total cost over 2 years to me of £13,000.00. Please advise where I can go buy new one of these cars (or an equivalent petrol X5, X6, RR,RRS, Q7, Q8, etc, etc) for less money than that over the same period. I'm all ears ….
In the words of the OP 'I want to go EV but being a northerner at the moment calculator says no.'
If your going to spend £40k+ on a car anyways any number of EVs make sense, but if you want to be cheap unless you can justify a sub 100 mile range Leaf the choice are pretty limited.
For example a £5k 10 year old Lexus RX 400h will probably be more reliable than a new eTron (or any other new EV), 20k of fuel would be about £3.5k, so for just over half the cost of an eTron for 2 years you can own a very reliable comparative SUV outright.
That been said a brand new eTron for £13k outlay over 2 years is very cheap for brand new car, but for some people its still expensive compared to a used combustion car.
https://youtu.be/uQa-_dmFx4w
SWoll said:
So running a 10 year old Lexus will work out considerably cheaper than a brand new £65k EV Audi?
Glad we've confirmed that.
And how many people in the UK drive a 10 year old car versus a £65k Audi?Glad we've confirmed that.
It doesn't matter how you play the figures, EVs are all still too expensive for the majority of the car buying public.
The fact a 10 year old Lexus will also get you from London to Edinburgh and back in a day with far less hassle/stress than in a brand new £65K EV Audi also shouldn't be ignored.
In most situations we pay a premium for more convenience, for EVs currently its sometimes the other way round.
Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 14th September 13:13
jjwilde said:
From previous thread:
Commercial is best use for them for me, the ENV200 saved us stupid amounts of money as a high mile local(ish) vehicle.
ENV200 over 88k: Tyres 8.
'Servicing' - none, decided not to bother, no issues.
Android head unit to replace rubbish nissan one: £220 (fit it myself)
Electricity cost: None(ish) (local free chargers, van parked at them over night and during the day - not blocking, 20 of them) Paid to charge it maybe 10 times in emergency at rapids, probably cost £10.
Van cost £8999 inc vat Ex demo @ 1000 miles (hahaha, just before the EV boom).
Train ticket to collect van from Liverpool: £65
As a result of this we were able to undercut our competition and get a lot more business.
Amazing.
Yes amazing you were lucky and didn't pay the full cost of your vehicle. Good timing when you bought.Commercial is best use for them for me, the ENV200 saved us stupid amounts of money as a high mile local(ish) vehicle.
ENV200 over 88k: Tyres 8.
'Servicing' - none, decided not to bother, no issues.
Android head unit to replace rubbish nissan one: £220 (fit it myself)
Electricity cost: None(ish) (local free chargers, van parked at them over night and during the day - not blocking, 20 of them) Paid to charge it maybe 10 times in emergency at rapids, probably cost £10.
Van cost £8999 inc vat Ex demo @ 1000 miles (hahaha, just before the EV boom).
Train ticket to collect van from Liverpool: £65
As a result of this we were able to undercut our competition and get a lot more business.
Amazing.
I'm hoping we will get oversupply of electric vehicles in a few years time so good that fear over range for that one off yearly trip remains to put people off.
I was half expecting to replace my 2012 Leaf with a new one this year but prices were higher than expected and lower availability for the 62kWh.
gangzoom said:
SWoll said:
So running a 10 year old Lexus will work out considerably cheaper than a brand new £65k EV Audi?
Glad we've confirmed that.
And how many people in the UK drive a 10 year old car versus a £65k Audi?Glad we've confirmed that.
It doesn't matter how you play the figures, EVs are all still too expensive for the majority of the car buying public.
The fact a 10 year old Lexus will also get you from London to Edinburgh and back in a day with far less hassle/stress than in a brand new £65K EV Audi also shouldn't be ignored.
In most situations we pay a premium for more convenience, for EVs currently its sometimes the other way round.
Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 14th September 13:13
Good to know those people commuting from London to Ediburgh and back in a day can do so without needing to take a break at services for half an hour though. I imagine that's a scenario affecting very many drivers every day.
I personally find an EV far more convenient than the previous ICE car. Just plug it in at night and 100+ miles of range every morning, or plug it in while I'm shopping for an hour and get 150. Also costs pennies.
I ran a car that ended up costing me nothing about 3 years ago.
A 1999 Mercury Grand Marquis, a posh Ford Crown Victoria.
4.6 V8 that did 12mpg in town and about 25mpg on a run.
Had it just under a year and it cost nothing including insurance, tax and fuel.
I sold it for 50% more than I paid for it
A 1999 Mercury Grand Marquis, a posh Ford Crown Victoria.
4.6 V8 that did 12mpg in town and about 25mpg on a run.
Had it just under a year and it cost nothing including insurance, tax and fuel.
I sold it for 50% more than I paid for it
Thanks for the replies, I guess the answer currently is no, but it will become cheaper.
There is a new Hyundai i10 released which is still short, less than 3700mm and has long wheel base for size. This would be great for a little car in the future that can accept a cheap battery when battery prices come down.
Would suit me down to a tee.
PS My currernt 99400 mile 2008 diesel Yaris might have to do a few years yet. Brilliant engine for a small car, will do 83mpg and 124mph down a hill. My dog has gone prematurely grey though sitting in the back
There is a new Hyundai i10 released which is still short, less than 3700mm and has long wheel base for size. This would be great for a little car in the future that can accept a cheap battery when battery prices come down.
Would suit me down to a tee.
PS My currernt 99400 mile 2008 diesel Yaris might have to do a few years yet. Brilliant engine for a small car, will do 83mpg and 124mph down a hill. My dog has gone prematurely grey though sitting in the back
It really depends on your usage and on what you compare it to. Performance tends to come "free" with increased range in EVs which means if you want a long range but not high performance or vice versa, they're likely to look expensive; if you want neither or both they're pretty competitive.
For our next family car, I'd be comparing something like an eNiro to something like an Octavia VRS which doesn't make the price comparison too ridiculous comparing new with new, but obviously a 5 year-old Octavia VRS really has to competition in the EV market.
For our next family car, I'd be comparing something like an eNiro to something like an Octavia VRS which doesn't make the price comparison too ridiculous comparing new with new, but obviously a 5 year-old Octavia VRS really has to competition in the EV market.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 18:25
kambites said:
Yup, the question is whether the general buying public are willing to suffer the inconvenience on the remaining 1% and I think thus far the indications seem to be that they are not - eGolfs are hardly flying out of the showrooms.
For us, an EV with a real world range of 200+ miles would be an absolute no-brainer for a family car compared to a petrol (I'd never buy a diesel) but anything less than about 150 in worst-case conditions starts to be an issue often enough to put me off unless it's considerably cheaper overall, which they are not (yet). Given that I'm not averse to buying second-hand, the relatively expensive lease deals and relatively high residuals creates something of a conundrum.
If I could lease an e-Niro for £250 or even £300 a month, I'd serious consider it but they seem to be £400+.
Prices should start to drop next year, mainstream cars are starting to go into production in volume. The ID3 seams cheap given it has the internal space of a Passat For us, an EV with a real world range of 200+ miles would be an absolute no-brainer for a family car compared to a petrol (I'd never buy a diesel) but anything less than about 150 in worst-case conditions starts to be an issue often enough to put me off unless it's considerably cheaper overall, which they are not (yet). Given that I'm not averse to buying second-hand, the relatively expensive lease deals and relatively high residuals creates something of a conundrum.
If I could lease an e-Niro for £250 or even £300 a month, I'd serious consider it but they seem to be £400+.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 14th September 09:23
Yes, I save money.
My 40kwh Zoe Dynamic Nav cost me £16500.00 including battery rental, it costs me approximately £450 per month to run, including electricity, servicing, PCP payments, battery lease payments, insurance, depreciation and tyres.
I am doing around 2500 miles per month so it works out around the same as I was paying purely for fuel in my old car.
I have done 185 miles on a full charge on a hot day in the summer and 150 miles is easily achievable for most of the year, almost all my driving is out of town so it is more than just a city car.
My 40kwh Zoe Dynamic Nav cost me £16500.00 including battery rental, it costs me approximately £450 per month to run, including electricity, servicing, PCP payments, battery lease payments, insurance, depreciation and tyres.
I am doing around 2500 miles per month so it works out around the same as I was paying purely for fuel in my old car.
I have done 185 miles on a full charge on a hot day in the summer and 150 miles is easily achievable for most of the year, almost all my driving is out of town so it is more than just a city car.
I had a model 3 on order 3 times and I've cancelled. Price fluctuations were the main reason along with the cost for this vehicle as a commuter and sensible getaway machine - holidays not banks!
I'm on my 5th EV, had a couple of Zoe's and Leaf's and now have an ageing Fluence without a battery lease. This current car cost me £4k and although the battery is showing as 75% usable, the range is around 48-52 miles. My commute is 20 miles each way and I charge at work as I installed the chargers so zero range or charger anxiety.
I've covered 22k miles in it now, and with some help at home from my 12KW solar array, the total cost of this mileage (as read through the meter to the charger) was £31.
So poor man maths equate to: £6000 saving in fuel against £4000 for the car. I'm doing better and the savings pay for the annual servicing for the other two cars.
I would love a Model 3 Performance but any savings made in fuel and running costs (servicing costs are still largely unknown) will NOT justify the original cost of ownership. It is trick, it is gadgety but it is still over £50k which is Aston Martin V8V money so for a commute car the numbers don't stack. I have a 928GT and a 6.0 Litre XJS for weekends and mid week use, and these get a lot more use now I use the Fluence for the commute.
I'm not ready to commit another £50k when the EV I currently own fits the purpose. EV as a second car makes a lot of sense if the car does local, but to replace a standard oil burner which is being used as a daily, then the new car price needs to be around £20k for a car similar to the Model S.
EV's are not there yet.
I'm on my 5th EV, had a couple of Zoe's and Leaf's and now have an ageing Fluence without a battery lease. This current car cost me £4k and although the battery is showing as 75% usable, the range is around 48-52 miles. My commute is 20 miles each way and I charge at work as I installed the chargers so zero range or charger anxiety.
I've covered 22k miles in it now, and with some help at home from my 12KW solar array, the total cost of this mileage (as read through the meter to the charger) was £31.
So poor man maths equate to: £6000 saving in fuel against £4000 for the car. I'm doing better and the savings pay for the annual servicing for the other two cars.
I would love a Model 3 Performance but any savings made in fuel and running costs (servicing costs are still largely unknown) will NOT justify the original cost of ownership. It is trick, it is gadgety but it is still over £50k which is Aston Martin V8V money so for a commute car the numbers don't stack. I have a 928GT and a 6.0 Litre XJS for weekends and mid week use, and these get a lot more use now I use the Fluence for the commute.
I'm not ready to commit another £50k when the EV I currently own fits the purpose. EV as a second car makes a lot of sense if the car does local, but to replace a standard oil burner which is being used as a daily, then the new car price needs to be around £20k for a car similar to the Model S.
EV's are not there yet.
I was thinking about getting a cheap Fluence to add to our fleet (got a Leaf 24kwh already) for the Mrs to go shopping/school running in etc. Are they all battery owned now? Also, I've seen one advertised which claims to have arrange of 30 miles or so. Do you know what range they had when new, and what capacity battery they had?
Ad: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Ad: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
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