Do BEV's actually save you money currently?
Discussion
if you own your own business, the sums are extremely inviting.
my last i3 was £260/month + VAT over 2 years with £1500 down
the vat went away
corp tax eroded the £3,800/yr down to £3225
not taking the money as salary took £1,700 virtual pounds away every year (money that would need to be paid on a private purchase)
takes the adjusted yearly down to £1,515
charged at work = £0
175 virtual gallons of fuel saved on additional car(@40mpg 7k) £6/gallon = £1050 saved
running total now £465pa
no RFL, adjusted figure now £320
no company car tax
servicing included
i know all of the above is mangling numbers to suit, but the point being that the car was essentially free to own as an additional car to take on local bobbing around duties...
my last i3 was £260/month + VAT over 2 years with £1500 down
the vat went away
corp tax eroded the £3,800/yr down to £3225
not taking the money as salary took £1,700 virtual pounds away every year (money that would need to be paid on a private purchase)
takes the adjusted yearly down to £1,515
charged at work = £0
175 virtual gallons of fuel saved on additional car(@40mpg 7k) £6/gallon = £1050 saved
running total now £465pa
no RFL, adjusted figure now £320
no company car tax
servicing included
i know all of the above is mangling numbers to suit, but the point being that the car was essentially free to own as an additional car to take on local bobbing around duties...
ElectricSoup said:
I was thinking about getting a cheap Fluence to add to our fleet (got a Leaf 24kwh already) for the Mrs to go shopping/school running in etc. Are they all battery owned now? Also, I've seen one advertised which claims to have arrange of 30 miles or so. Do you know what range they had when new, and what capacity battery they had?
Ad: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
I got lucky with mine. I saw it advertised on ebay and I posted it on an EV forum. One of the members said it must have a battery lease so reported it to ebay. Fortunately I had already expressed an interest before the advert got pulled and sure enough there was no battery lease as the last owner bought the car from a Renault dealership, and they forgot to mention the lease contract! I have written confirmation from RCI finance that there is no interest in the battery.Ad: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
30 miles sounds very low, most are around 50-60 miles. Download the Renault Fluence Spy app for your phone and then using a bluetooth ODB2 dongle (as listed on the app page) you can see exactly what the state of battery is. The ODB2 port is in the front of the centre console and you have to remove a tricky cover which will also reveal the audio input jacks for the stereo. There are a number of companies also looking at replacing the batteries and they use Gen1 Leaf cell packs so the later Gen2 packs will give you twice the range.. if you own your own battery.
It really is a great car other than the range limitations. It is well equipped with dual air, leather, cruise, satnav etc. Comfy, quiet and roomy make it a great allrounder. Infotainment system is the same as a Zoe and recent traffic update disks apparently work too. For £3k that Fluence will be a very straight car, however the battery lease is around £60 pm and that means you are still paying diesel running costs. If you can check the battery and it has lost some of its range, then it might be worth a call to RCI and see if they will sell it to you.
Fluence Spy app is here:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pt.a...
Fluence FB page is here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Renault.Fluence.ZE...
If the point of EVs is to save the planet we need to be careful what we spend the saving on.
Road transport fuel is highly taxed where as other types such as aviation and stationary uses are not. All "stuff" and "experiences" have a footprint of the materials and energy used to create them.
So no good if you spend your EV saving on a long haul flight...
Road transport fuel is highly taxed where as other types such as aviation and stationary uses are not. All "stuff" and "experiences" have a footprint of the materials and energy used to create them.
So no good if you spend your EV saving on a long haul flight...
OP's question was - does it save you money?
in my case - yes.
drove to work in London - no congestion charge - parked for 4 hours near work for free - the max allowed (whilst plugged into a Source). Drove to a meeting near Oxford St...parked for 90 mins for free and charged (Source bay again)... came back to work and parked in a yet to be connected new electric charging bay for free
In an ICE would have cost £11.50 CC, plus easily £30 in parking charges. I'm ignoring fuel but patently the cost of charging was less than the petrol (maybe marginal if you have a super economical car I accept).
absolute no brainer
but totally depends on your usage / local rules
also worth saying whilst stuck in heavy traffic I used the M3 web browser to peruse the Daily Mail sidebar of shame.
winner all round !
in my case - yes.
drove to work in London - no congestion charge - parked for 4 hours near work for free - the max allowed (whilst plugged into a Source). Drove to a meeting near Oxford St...parked for 90 mins for free and charged (Source bay again)... came back to work and parked in a yet to be connected new electric charging bay for free
In an ICE would have cost £11.50 CC, plus easily £30 in parking charges. I'm ignoring fuel but patently the cost of charging was less than the petrol (maybe marginal if you have a super economical car I accept).
absolute no brainer
but totally depends on your usage / local rules
also worth saying whilst stuck in heavy traffic I used the M3 web browser to peruse the Daily Mail sidebar of shame.
winner all round !
ElectricSoup said:
I was thinking about getting a cheap Fluence to add to our fleet (got a Leaf 24kwh already) for the Mrs to go shopping/school running in etc. Are they all battery owned now? Also, I've seen one advertised which claims to have arrange of 30 miles or so. Do you know what range they had when new, and what capacity battery they had?
Ad: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
I think that one has a battery lease. Just read an Autotrader review, delivered to them with full battery 44 miles later 17 miles on GOM. Yikes. Ad: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
lost in espace said:
ElectricSoup said:
I was thinking about getting a cheap Fluence to add to our fleet (got a Leaf 24kwh already) for the Mrs to go shopping/school running in etc. Are they all battery owned now? Also, I've seen one advertised which claims to have arrange of 30 miles or so. Do you know what range they had when new, and what capacity battery they had?
Ad: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
I think that one has a battery lease. Just read an Autotrader review, delivered to them with full battery 44 miles later 17 miles on GOM. Yikes. Ad: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
For me it was equal.
I bought an i3 on spreadsheet calculations in 2016. At the time I had a 2003 Subaru Forester XT which we bought new and had done about 260,000km. The Subaru had been doing about 26 mpg and we had always filled it with super-unleaded (Subaru's recommendation).
Buying the i3 we shifted about 25,000km from the Subaru to the BMW. The i3 was a second hand first gen BEV - a BMW Switzerland car. We ran it for 16 months until a house move made it unsuitable. (I now live at 1750m and need a AWD car as we have snow 6 months a year, it's -20 in the winter and most journeys are > 200 km)
For the i3:
Road tax was 0
I put a monitor in the garage to record electricity usage and the cost of charging was CHF 700
Service was CHF 25 for some fluid. BMWs in Switzerland all come with a 10 year / 100,000km servicing package
Lease was CHF 395 a month
Insurance was additional, and about the same price as the Subaru
By using the i3 instead of the Subaru I saved the petrol - which was substantial - and importantly reduced wear / team and about 2 services.
Overall I broke even whilst getting a second car.
Obviously my costs aren't necessary comparable as I was driving something with poor fuel economy / costs and higher service costs than a new car. That being said I viewed the Subaru as having zero depreciation.
Personally I loved the experience of driving an EV and will probably get one in 18 months when the current car needs a change.
I bought an i3 on spreadsheet calculations in 2016. At the time I had a 2003 Subaru Forester XT which we bought new and had done about 260,000km. The Subaru had been doing about 26 mpg and we had always filled it with super-unleaded (Subaru's recommendation).
Buying the i3 we shifted about 25,000km from the Subaru to the BMW. The i3 was a second hand first gen BEV - a BMW Switzerland car. We ran it for 16 months until a house move made it unsuitable. (I now live at 1750m and need a AWD car as we have snow 6 months a year, it's -20 in the winter and most journeys are > 200 km)
For the i3:
Road tax was 0
I put a monitor in the garage to record electricity usage and the cost of charging was CHF 700
Service was CHF 25 for some fluid. BMWs in Switzerland all come with a 10 year / 100,000km servicing package
Lease was CHF 395 a month
Insurance was additional, and about the same price as the Subaru
By using the i3 instead of the Subaru I saved the petrol - which was substantial - and importantly reduced wear / team and about 2 services.
Overall I broke even whilst getting a second car.
Obviously my costs aren't necessary comparable as I was driving something with poor fuel economy / costs and higher service costs than a new car. That being said I viewed the Subaru as having zero depreciation.
Personally I loved the experience of driving an EV and will probably get one in 18 months when the current car needs a change.
Baldchap said:
Our model X cost over £10 per mile in depreciation.
.Our X isnt any where near as bad at 80p per mile or £773/month if we were to sell now - which we aren't.
That figure isn't actually that bad for a £70k+ car, but thanks to the hatred for diesels our Lexus petrol hybrid has started to APPRECIATE!!
WBAC is offering us £2k more for it now than as the start of the year. Due to small number of miles it does the cost per mile is still high at 60p. However depreciation per month is now down to £270/month from new, and that figure will get close to £200/month over the next 12 months I reckon.
But the only real way to avoid depreciation is to not buy a new car, so we are holding on too both cars. The longer we own them for the less the depreciation.
Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 18th September 12:11
LordFlathead said:
the new car price needs to be around £20k for a car similar to the Model S.
EV's are not there yet.
I think you may want to update your self on new car prices in 2019.EV's are not there yet.
£20k will just about get you a 5 door Ford Fiesta Active 1 (not even a ST), with a 1 litre engine.
Whilst I do think a Model S is currently overpriced at £77k starting you cannot even get a used 2014 one for £20k.
So if your waiting for someone to make an 200 mile range EV, with decent space inside for family/luggage, and decent tech all for £20k brand new.......Your going to be waiting forever!
gangzoom said:
But the only real way to avoid depreciation is to not buy a new car, so we are holding on too both cars. The longer we own them for the less the depreciation.
Thats what we do with my OHs car, find a nearly new demo with about 30% off then run it to about 120k and part x it when a repair would cost us about 50% of its trade in valueexcept now she is on a mission to get an ID Buzz no matter the cost lol
Dave Hedgehog said:
except now she is on a mission to get an ID Buzz no matter the cost lol
But judging by the €40-50k+ prices been hinted at for a mid range ID, good luck with the Buzz, it might even make a X look cheap!!However who can put a price on happiness
Happy wife = Happy life.
our new, 30kwh leaf tekna was £500 down. £225 a month.
obviously no road fund.
£75 PA for a service.
free break down.
never going to repair it or put tyres on it for terms of lease.
no MOT
V saving £1600 PA of equivalent running costs of a 50mpg diesel car/fuel MOT/service/parts/tax.
insurance is academic- it still remained at £330 PA I think either way.
the full cost of electric to drive 8000 miles PA was £223.
can't be bothered about the precise details- but fundamentally it cost me £80 a month for my wife and children to be in a brand new (much safer!) car.
happy days.
these deals no longer exist !
I never looked at hybrids/phev's on anything else as they are no better than a decent diesel/thus not worth the purchase /uplift in cost
obviously no road fund.
£75 PA for a service.
free break down.
never going to repair it or put tyres on it for terms of lease.
no MOT
V saving £1600 PA of equivalent running costs of a 50mpg diesel car/fuel MOT/service/parts/tax.
insurance is academic- it still remained at £330 PA I think either way.
the full cost of electric to drive 8000 miles PA was £223.
can't be bothered about the precise details- but fundamentally it cost me £80 a month for my wife and children to be in a brand new (much safer!) car.
happy days.
these deals no longer exist !
I never looked at hybrids/phev's on anything else as they are no better than a decent diesel/thus not worth the purchase /uplift in cost
austinsmirk said:
our new, 30kwh leaf tekna was £500 down. £225 a month........
.......these deals no longer exist !
I never looked at hybrids/phev's on anything else as they are no better than a decent diesel/thus not worth the purchase /uplift in cost
Biggest problem is these deals don't exist anymore, so are you going to buy at the end of the PCP term?.......these deals no longer exist !
I never looked at hybrids/phev's on anything else as they are no better than a decent diesel/thus not worth the purchase /uplift in cost
For hybrids I was shocked to find how strong residuals are, but when you do the numbers its pretty obvious why people want them in the second hand market.
Unlike diesels no DPF to worry about, no crazy clean zone charges coming for many citites.
Our IS300H does a true 50mpg on normal unleaded, so 10p per mile in fuel costs which unless your doing big miles in an EV is pretty cheap to fuel. £10 year VED - lower spec versions £0, versus now £310/year for 5 years on something like a Model 3.
Brakes last forever due to regen like EVs, rock solid Toyota reliability, and only £200/year service cost at local independent.
Throw in now really slow depreciation on a the used market, its an really attractive package for anyone wanting to move away from diesels, but don't/cannot splash out on a new EV, or worried about range etc.
Toyota may have got mass market demand right for hybrids. Most people don't seem to care about throttle response or 0-60 times EVs can do much better than hybrids. But cheaper, reliable, more convince and not been a diesel is whats selling well at present.
Even in August when Tesla delivered a bumper volume of Model 3s more hybrids were sold than EVs!
gangzoom said:
austinsmirk said:
our new, 30kwh leaf tekna was £500 down. £225 a month........
.......these deals no longer exist !
I never looked at hybrids/phev's on anything else as they are no better than a decent diesel/thus not worth the purchase /uplift in cost
Biggest problem is these deals don't exist anymore, so are you going to buy at the end of the PCP term?.......these deals no longer exist !
I never looked at hybrids/phev's on anything else as they are no better than a decent diesel/thus not worth the purchase /uplift in cost
For hybrids I was shocked to find how strong residuals are, but when you do the numbers its pretty obvious why people want them in the second hand market.
Unlike diesels no DPF to worry about, no crazy clean zone charges coming for many citites.
Our IS300H does a true 50mpg on normal unleaded, so 10p per mile in fuel costs which unless your doing big miles in an EV is pretty cheap to fuel. £10 year VED - lower spec versions £0, versus now £310/year for 5 years on something like a Model 3.
Brakes last forever due to regen like EVs, rock solid Toyota reliability, and only £200/year service cost at local independent.
Throw in now really slow depreciation on a the used market, its an really attractive package for anyone wanting to move away from diesels, but don't/cannot splash out on a new EV, or worried about range etc.
Toyota may have got mass market demand right for hybrids. Most people don't seem to care about throttle response or 0-60 times EVs can do much better than hybrids. But cheaper, reliable, more convince and not been a diesel is whats selling well at present.
Even in August when Tesla delivered a bumper volume of Model 3s more hybrids were sold than EVs!
^If your lucky enough to have a old crazy RCI Leaf contract surely paying the GFV is no brainer? Providing your happy with it.
A base spec Model 3 is currently £6k down and than £500/month for 3 years + another £20k to pay at the end!! - That works out at £44k all in over 3 years, so x10 times the amount the GFV on your Leaf.
A SR+ Model 3 is better than a Leaf but is it worth paying 10 times the amount for over 3 years, not a chance.
A base spec Model 3 is currently £6k down and than £500/month for 3 years + another £20k to pay at the end!! - That works out at £44k all in over 3 years, so x10 times the amount the GFV on your Leaf.
A SR+ Model 3 is better than a Leaf but is it worth paying 10 times the amount for over 3 years, not a chance.
Sambucket said:
What would be the EV with the closest ICE analogue?
The Zoe can be bought new for about 15k with battery lease. Nor far off a new Clio with similar spec.
If we ignore the lease in exchange for fuel savings. Then the other little savings will add up.
A model 3 Performance is v close in all ways to a new Audi S4. same size, similar performance, 4wd saloons, same £The Zoe can be bought new for about 15k with battery lease. Nor far off a new Clio with similar spec.
If we ignore the lease in exchange for fuel savings. Then the other little savings will add up.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff