Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive (Vol. 2)

[anonymous-user]

Automotive designer Frank Stephenson's take on the Cybertruck.
https://futurism.com/automobile-designer-demolishe...

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

Stop being a fool -

Personal insults now? Seriously?

[Castrol for a knave]

jamoor said:

Justin Case said:

Manufacturers are in business to sell new cars. They hope that having the latest tech will help customers to buy their cars instead of their competitors' ones. Whether the new car replaces a year old one or a ten year old one is irrelevant to them. The motor trade thinks differently, hence their desperation to suck you into their new PCP deal when yours runs out.

This is kind of where Tesla is different, they are betting on creating an alternative recurring revenue stream (robotaxis) rather than having to keep selling new cars year in year out to make money.

I tend to view it the same as yourself, but I am not sold on the robotaxi thing.

I just think the future will be modular vehicles, that can be upgraded (and this is where the profit is) rather than replaced. Of course, there will be a supply of new, but a manufacturer will look to take profit from the lifetime of the vehicle, rather than from a unit sale.

It's the service depts that keeps the dealers afloat (that and finance) but it's difficult to control (which is the crux) as owners go outside of the dealership network and source non-OEM/ manufacturer parts.

[Castrol for a knave]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

He has an excellent YouTube channel and says it as he sees it.

He's probably right - it is a bit of a 1970's Gandini cheese dream, that thing.

[TheRainMaker]

Wait a second, you have to pay extra for a radio?

[Richard-D]

Castrol for a knave said:

I just think the future will be modular vehicles, that can be upgraded (and this is where the profit is) rather than replaced. Of course, there will be a supply of new, but a manufacturer will look to take profit from the lifetime of the vehicle, rather than from a unit sale.

In what way do you see vehicles being modular? With electric vehicles I'd expect the battery to be the main 'module' anyone would want to upgrade but if anything they're getting more integrated aren't they?

I like the idea of a modular, upgradeable vehicle too but can't see it happening myself. Anything modular has to be heavier to facilitate that ability which means it is always going to be compromised in some way for the initial customer.

[Tuna]

Richard-D said:

In what way do you see vehicles being modular? With electric vehicles I'd expect the battery to be the main 'module' anyone would want to upgrade but if anything they're getting more integrated aren't they?

Indeed, structural batteries are a key ingredient when it comes to weight saving. In addition, it turns out that batteries get built to the architecture of the vehicle, so it's not like we have a universal battery size and composition that can just be swapped between cars. I think GM are moving towards a more modular battery design, but it still looks like this is to aid construction rather than to let customers swap and upgrade.

[Richard-D]

TheRainMaker said:

Wait a second, you have to pay extra for a radio?

I hadn't realised that either. I love the suggestion that nobody listens to the radio too. I have no interest in podcasts, music streaming etc. If I want some noise or news on a journey the radio goes on. I have no interest in faffing with streaming etc and I imagine the bulk of people are similar. I think there is a tendency for people that like fiddling with that stuff to assume that everyone else wants to, hence the yabbering about 'infotainment'.

[Castrol for a knave]

Richard-D said:

Castrol for a knave said:

I just think the future will be modular vehicles, that can be upgraded (and this is where the profit is) rather than replaced. Of course, there will be a supply of new, but a manufacturer will look to take profit from the lifetime of the vehicle, rather than from a unit sale.

In what way do you see vehicles being modular? With electric vehicles I'd expect the battery to be the main 'module' anyone would want to upgrade but if anything they're getting more integrated aren't they?

I like the idea of a modular, upgradeable vehicle too but can't see it happening myself. Anything modular has to be heavier to facilitate that ability which means it is always going to be compromised in some way for the initial customer.

Probably not this generation, but in time, the battery / fuel pack will be replaceable. The tech inside can be upgradeable to a point, but then the hardware can be likewise replaceable.

There will of course be general service items but the core componentry can be swapped out, upgraded.

The body shell is almost like an airframe, without the worry about running out of hours.

People will replace the entire car as new designs are released and such but the operating lifetime will be longer and more profitable to the manufacturer than we have now. Sales volumes will fall but the profit recouped through the ownership cost of the vehicle.

Mind you, I was never much cop at the Urban Futures classes when I was uni - I had us all wearing hover boots and looking like the Jetsons.

[Heres Johnny]

Castrol for a knave said:

Richard-D said:

Castrol for a knave said:

I just think the future will be modular vehicles, that can be upgraded (and this is where the profit is) rather than replaced. Of course, there will be a supply of new, but a manufacturer will look to take profit from the lifetime of the vehicle, rather than from a unit sale.

In what way do you see vehicles being modular? With electric vehicles I'd expect the battery to be the main 'module' anyone would want to upgrade but if anything they're getting more integrated aren't they?

I like the idea of a modular, upgradeable vehicle too but can't see it happening myself. Anything modular has to be heavier to facilitate that ability which means it is always going to be compromised in some way for the initial customer.

Probably not this generation, but in time, the battery / fuel pack will be replaceable. The tech inside can be upgradeable to a point, but then the hardware can be likewise replaceable.

There will of course be general service items but the core componentry can be swapped out, upgraded.

The body shell is almost like an airframe, without the worry about running out of hours.

People will replace the entire car as new designs are released and such but the operating lifetime will be longer and more profitable to the manufacturer than we have now. Sales volumes will fall but the profit recouped through the ownership cost of the vehicle.

Mind you, I was never much cop at the Urban Futures classes when I was uni - I had us all wearing hover boots and looking like the Jetsons.

The battery is already relatively easy to swap out on some cars, it was even trialled to hot swap them for a while, but the trend is actually now the complete opposite with talk that the battery pack will be a structural part of the car as opposed to something bolted to the chassis. The argument seems to be for reducing weight and more efficient packaging I can see this being a liability for warranty where a faulty battery sounds incredibly difficult to swap out. I've a similar worry about the increased use of single piece castings some are moving to where the whole front and/or rear of the car are single pieces - accident damage could be quite difficult to repair if a 1/3 of the car needs to be removed and replaced.

[Heres Johnny]

Richard-D said:

TheRainMaker said:

Wait a second, you have to pay extra for a radio?

I hadn't realised that either. I love the suggestion that nobody listens to the radio too. I have no interest in podcasts, music streaming etc. If I want some noise or news on a journey the radio goes on. I have no interest in faffing with streaming etc and I imagine the bulk of people are similar. I think there is a tendency for people that like fiddling with that stuff to assume that everyone else wants to, hence the yabbering about 'infotainment'.

Tesla supporters like to argue its a good thing that the radio you already have is lost when you spend over 2 grand upgrading the screen and you only need to pay again if you actually want to use it. Its funny they make the argument this is ok but then don't think anything of paying money for things that don't even exist yet. This is a reflection of the absurdity of some owners thought processes than anything else.

[jamoor]

TheRainMaker said:

Wait a second, you have to pay extra for a radio?

What does pay extra to keep the radio mean?
Does it mean you don’t have dab?

[ZesPak]

Or... You can just keep using the radio that is already in there.
Honestly, if my XF had a way of upgrading the head unit, I would have done it in a heartbeat, even if it meant I was losing FM radio.
At least Tesla gives you the option.
Maybe they should have just said it's 2500 instead of doing the radio separately, but that's hardly the point.
Many brands have you pay nearly double that to "upgrade" from a miniscule screen to a tiny one.

[Heres Johnny]

jamoor said:

What does pay extra to keep the radio mean?
Does it mean you don’t have dab?

ZesPak said:

Or... You can just keep using the radio that is already in there.

If you decide to upgrade the big screen you lose the radio unless you pay extra, If you upgrade, you can't keep using the one already have as it will be taken away

The background tells the story - when Tesla first introduced the MCU upgrade they had no solution to keeping the radio so they offered the upgrade and you lost the radio. I feel relatively confident that if they had a solution they'd have just done it from day one and in the price.

They've now found a way, presumably new wiring harness and module - whatever it needed, but its not the old components - and you can now pay to have this done which will give you back the radio.

Your personal Tesla glass being half full or half empty tells you whether the optional radio element is a master stroke of giving customers choice or a right liberty of removing something you already had if you didn't ask the question as people have certainly upgraded before the radio was an option and hadn't realised the radio would disappear.

[jamoor]

Heres Johnny said:

If you decide to upgrade the big screen you lose the radio unless you pay extra, If you upgrade, you can't keep using the one already have as it will be taken away

The background tells the story - when Tesla first introduced the MCU upgrade they had no solution to keeping the radio so they offered the upgrade and you lost the radio. I feel relatively confident that if they had a solution they'd have just done it from day one and in the price.

They've now found a way, presumably new wiring harness and module - whatever it needed, but its not the old components - and you can now pay to have this done which will give you back the radio.

Your personal Tesla glass being half full or half empty tells you whether the optional radio element is a master stroke of giving customers choice or a right liberty of removing something you already had if you didn't ask the question as people have certainly upgraded before the radio was an option and hadn't realised the radio would disappear.

Is it both fm and dab?

[ZesPak]

Heres Johnny said:

Your personal Tesla glass being half full or half empty tells you whether the optional radio element is a master stroke of giving customers choice or a right liberty of removing something you already had if you didn't ask the question as people have certainly upgraded before the radio was an option and hadn't realised the radio would disappear.

That would certainly be the case but is less of a brand issue than it is a specific store/employee issue. People being badly informed happens everywhere and iirc that was hardly what the discussion was about? It reminds me of that guy who got an etron (?) and thought it had charging ports at both sides (as advertised and on demo vehicles), upon delivery he learned that one is an optional extra he can't retroactively fit.

Should Audi not be allowed to charge for this extra port? It's maybe not the best practice but it's just commerce. The way you describe it for Tesla is even more in their favor. Once they got a solution they offered it, if people got misinformed during the upgrade it's not Tesla's fault unless they are deliberately misinforming them?

jamoor said:

Is it both fm and dab?

Just looked it up, you lose AM, FM AND DAB apparently. Probably some antenna wiring as Johnny said.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/infotainment?r...



edit: as far as I can see, it is mentioned four times on that page that you'll lose this.

Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 16th December 10:58

[Heres Johnny]

ZesPak said:

Heres Johnny said:

Your personal Tesla glass being half full or half empty tells you whether the optional radio element is a master stroke of giving customers choice or a right liberty of removing something you already had if you didn't ask the question as people have certainly upgraded before the radio was an option and hadn't realised the radio would disappear.

That would certainly be the case but is less of a brand issue than it is a specific store/employee issue. People being badly informed happens everywhere and iirc that was hardly what the discussion was about? It reminds me of that guy who got an etron (?) and thought it had charging ports at both sides (as advertised and on demo vehicles), upon delivery he learned that one is an optional extra he can't retroactively fit.

Should Audi not be allowed to charge for this extra port? It's maybe not the best practice but it's just commerce. The way you describe it for Tesla is even more in their favor. Once they got a solution they offered it, if people got misinformed during the upgrade it's not Tesla's fault unless they are deliberately misinforming them?

jamoor said:

Is it both fm and dab?

Just looked it up, you lose AM, FM AND DAB apparently. Probably some antenna wiring as Johnny said.

I agree with you up to a point. I think in the blurb about the upgrade it should be crystal clear if a major feature such as a radio would disappear as part of the change, I can't say I checked the website wording when it came to the UK as the issue was well known but I do remember people struggling to find out if the radio would disappear on UK cars when they started to happen which implies it wasn't clear.. This wasn't staff in the service centres giving false information, the upgrade made no mention and so it just went when they got their car back. Would you have asked if the radio would go if you had a change made? If you paid for the CCS update would you have asked if AC charging would still work? (It does, but it illustrates the point),

And yes, although AM radio disappeared when the MCU2 was launched and hasn't been available on new cars for some time. FM and DAB goes and in the US they use Sirius I think - some satellite radio anyway- which also went unless you buy pay extra..

1. # just seen your ediut while I was responding - good to see its now clear but pretty sure it wasn't like that before

[ZesPak]

The number of mentions on that page does feel a bit like overcompensating indeed.

In any case, Tesla is offering a level of upgrade ability that I haven't seen on a car since everyone ditched DIN.
They might not have a perfect implementation, but the ability to upgrade like that makes durability a lot better.

But yes, apparently that's enough to have the naysayers point and laugh. As I said, I'd have loved to be able to do that on my Jag.

Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 16th December 11:23

[jamoor]

ZesPak said:

The number of mentions on that page does feel a bit like overcompensating indeed.

In any case, Tesla is offering a level of upgrade ability that I haven't seen on a car since everyone ditched DIN.

Yep it’s better than what came before.

[AstonZagato]

jamoor said:

ZesPak said:

The number of mentions on that page does feel a bit like overcompensating indeed.

In any case, Tesla is offering a level of upgrade ability that I haven't seen on a car since everyone ditched DIN.

Yep it’s better than what came before.

Other than not having the radio...