Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Gandahar said:
He doesn't get any money day to day from Tesla on wage or cash incentives, just down to share price and market value incentives.
Is that good or bad?
CEO invested in growing his company? Much better than the golden payoff over paid sIs that good or bad?
te at most other companies. BlackRock is switching $7 trillion to climate friendly investments and they wont be the last either...
RobDickinson said:
Gandahar said:
Why did it get put in high expense Germany and not Czech Republic with lower wage costs and already
I'm guessing that was a complicated spreadsheet of costs, +/-s and local incentives, labor availability, infrastructure etc.Tesla already has a largeish German company (~1000 employees) so knows the country I guess.
It will be interesting to see how a GF in China being done so quickly matches up to how fast a GF4 in the "old world" progresses over the next 12 to 18 months.
Might show something about the old world .......
RobDickinson said:
BlackRock is switching $7 trillion to climate friendly investments and they wont be the last either...
What's that to do with anything?They aren't moving it on personal Principles, it's where the growth is going to be.
Due to political policies, which they are helping to influence.
Tuna said:
It's hard not to be suspicious that it wasn't a complicated spreadsheet of costs so much as a political negotiation.
With big industrial projects like that there's always some form of government kickback. Last I heard they are getting the land for the factory at below half market price. Nothing major in the grand scheme of things but still useful. One would hope the political caste is at least *a bit* less naive nowadays though -- ironically, there was a big scandal a couple of years ago when Nokia moved its German production further east -- after skimming off some tasty incentives over a couple of years...More relevant is likely cost / unit. Germany has high productivity and good staff (at a price). Mass producing things is what the country was (re)built on. And if the product is complex and expensive enough, the share of wages in the total cost is less relevant. One might find it a bit ironic, but likely the production tech used in many German factories is further down the path of digitalization than the products made... And it's not just the automation -- looking at say the Daimler "Factory 56" project.
Gandahar said:
Might show something about the old world .......
Just for fun an example from a customer of ours. Outfit is making relatively high tech devices for production industry. Really anecdotal obviously, not comparable to car industry.That said, they have four main factories: one in Latin America, one in China, one in Eastern Europe and the old place that started it all, in Germany. They've been playing around with closing the German plant for ages -- wage cost, lots of holidays, 35h week, unionised plant... But they keep improving (productivity, rate of defects, flexibility, cost per unit). That's despite reduced investments due to the lingering threat of closure.
Currently, much to everybody's surprise, overall -- they are the cheapest of the lot. And there's something to cheer up UK patriots as well: place is currently run by a Brit. Really good manager that guy.
Think as long as Tesla is really into mass producing expensive things with good margin, wage cost isn't that much of a priority. The classic approach would likely have been to set up GF1 in say Mexico? But they didn't.
hyphen said:
From another thread, charging price change for 'direct customers'
I imagine that means non partner manufacturers, such as Tesla.
Just imagine if petrol stations could make that sort of margin on fuel - that’s about an 80% gross margin.I imagine that means non partner manufacturers, such as Tesla.
Edited by hyphen on Thursday 16th January 21:20
And yes I do realise the profit per square foot per hour is a very different matter at present...
hyphen said:
From another thread, charging price change for 'direct customers'
I imagine that means non partner manufacturers, such as Tesla.
Yet another reason Tesla's charging network is one of their best assets. No Tesla owner has to worry about those silly prices.I imagine that means non partner manufacturers, such as Tesla.
Edited by hyphen on Thursday 16th January 21:20
jjwilde said:
Yet another reason Tesla's charging network is one of their best assets. No Tesla owner has to worry about those silly prices.
Tesla are putting up their own prices https://insideevs.com/news/392775/tesla-adjusts-su...I think there maybe a misunderstanding all around- EV's are not going to be cheaper to run in the near future, its only now to get them going.
Once Ev's properly take off, its going to be a case of make as much money as they can from the owners.
skwdenyer said:
Just imagine if petrol stations could make that sort of margin on fuel - that’s about an 80% gross margin.
And yes I do realise the profit per square foot per hour is a very different matter at present...
350kw chargers cost a fortune to install, around 150k each if i recall correctly And yes I do realise the profit per square foot per hour is a very different matter at present...
hyphen said:
jjwilde said:
Yet another reason Tesla's charging network is one of their best assets. No Tesla owner has to worry about those silly prices.
Tesla are putting up their own prices https://insideevs.com/news/392775/tesla-adjusts-su...I think there maybe a misunderstanding all around- EV's are not going to be cheaper to run in the near future, its only now to get them going.
Once Ev's properly take off, its going to be a case of make as much money as they can from the owners.
jjwilde said:
Yet another reason Tesla's charging network is one of their best assets. No Tesla owner has to worry about those silly prices.
Very odd logic. Doesn't it show that running a charging network is extremely expensive, and scales badly with uptake?If VW started giving away diesel to all their drivers 'for life', it wouldn't be heralded as a brilliant business move, would it?
hyphen said:
jamoor said:
We were promised that legacy car makers will sit back and watch Tesla take all the risks and then they will come charging in at speed with their own variants.
Except car makers are doing now what Tesla did about 5 years ago with the Tesla/Etron/I pace class of car and 3 years ago in the case of the model 3/id3 class of car.
I don't think VW is talking about struggling to make EVs is he?Except car makers are doing now what Tesla did about 5 years ago with the Tesla/Etron/I pace class of car and 3 years ago in the case of the model 3/id3 class of car.
Doesn't he mean autonomous driving and a move away from individuals owning their own cars and so on? Hence his comment about cars no longer being a modemof transport.
Tesla haven't cracked it, and their software was nicked by tesla's ex staff and given to the Chinese, so they won't be so far behind. And apple, Google and so on.
He isn't talking about Tesla per se.
Edited by hyphen on Thursday 16th January 19:17
Uber's current helicopter service in the USA is apparently doing well too.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/14/hyundai-uber-...
Tuna said:
Very odd logic. Doesn't it show that running a charging network is extremely expensive, and scales badly with uptake?
If VW started giving away diesel to all their drivers 'for life', it wouldn't be heralded as a brilliant business move, would it?
Seems to work very well for Tesla and Tesla owners. If VW started giving away diesel to all their drivers 'for life', it wouldn't be heralded as a brilliant business move, would it?
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