Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Let's take a look at the Model 3 MCU (screen). When it was released the MCU was set to log everything. In the world of developing software you only use log everything if there is a bug you are trying to find. The volume of logs is crazy. At release, Tesla knew the memory in the MCU had a finite life span and with the current logging would be dead in a couple of years. They had 2 options...1) set logging to normal levels which would extend the life to a reasonable level. 2) ship the cars as is and deal with it in a couple of years when a s
t storm happens.
They went with option 2.... OK now we are 2 years later and, as they knew about the issue how did they resolve it? Back to 2 options 1) Replace the MCU under warranty and set logging to normal, or 2) charge full retail for a replacement with the same memory and still set to full logging.
Yup, they chose option 2.
But wait, it did not stop there as they charged retail for another replacement in some cases!
Yes, granted when they were found out to be doing this they first dropped the price and then started replacing them under warranty.
But, they went into this knowing there was an issue. And, why the fk were they collecting so much data by logging everything? Conspiracy theorists say it is because they sold the info on to third parties. I think they knew it was going to break at some point and assumed before the death of the MDU.
By the way, if it is not clear, no one should ever have their logging set to "full" in any situation other than diagnostics. Being in "full" is not a belt and braces thing. It is an indication that something is broken.
t storm happens.They went with option 2.... OK now we are 2 years later and, as they knew about the issue how did they resolve it? Back to 2 options 1) Replace the MCU under warranty and set logging to normal, or 2) charge full retail for a replacement with the same memory and still set to full logging.
Yup, they chose option 2.
But wait, it did not stop there as they charged retail for another replacement in some cases!
Yes, granted when they were found out to be doing this they first dropped the price and then started replacing them under warranty.
But, they went into this knowing there was an issue. And, why the f
k were they collecting so much data by logging everything? Conspiracy theorists say it is because they sold the info on to third parties. I think they knew it was going to break at some point and assumed before the death of the MDU.By the way, if it is not clear, no one should ever have their logging set to "full" in any situation other than diagnostics. Being in "full" is not a belt and braces thing. It is an indication that something is broken.
Tesla updated the software to cause batterygate and chargegate to reduce warranty claims - if they could eek out the battery life they'd either defer the spend on replacement or avoid it altogether
They did exactly the same thing the eMMC issue where they refused claims, reformatted faiing devices, reduced logging all in hope of pushing the devices into an out of warranty state. And do you know many who have successfully been upgraded on warranty or had their repayment for their paid fix? Virtually nobody in the UK has successfuly had this despite Tesla being forced to agree its a design faut
Neither of the changes they made fixed the problem, i only deferred the failure.
If thats not a deliberate abuse of their customers then what is?
As for VW, there's a possible argument that what they did was a tax fiddle to get cars into lower emmissions categories and would have made little difference to real world polution bcause the cars would probably have still been bought. Owners seem very happy to NOT get their cars updated to maintain the performance and still try and get the compensation - double standards
They did exactly the same thing the eMMC issue where they refused claims, reformatted faiing devices, reduced logging all in hope of pushing the devices into an out of warranty state. And do you know many who have successfully been upgraded on warranty or had their repayment for their paid fix? Virtually nobody in the UK has successfuly had this despite Tesla being forced to agree its a design faut
Neither of the changes they made fixed the problem, i only deferred the failure.
If thats not a deliberate abuse of their customers then what is?
As for VW, there's a possible argument that what they did was a tax fiddle to get cars into lower emmissions categories and would have made little difference to real world polution bcause the cars would probably have still been bought. Owners seem very happy to NOT get their cars updated to maintain the performance and still try and get the compensation - double standards
h0b0 said:
I have gone from being a potential buyer to, what I consider, a fact checker. When I test drove the P85D I was very impressed and saw the future of cars. My issue is not with the company, it is Elon Musk. The man has taken everyone for fools by his constant lies. It went from "optimistic" delivery dates to fictitious products. I have very intelligent friends who have given themselves over to his cult. On my short road 25% of cars are teslas. Most of the owners seem brain washed into telling me how perfect their cars are even though the facts tell a very different story. JD Power has them ranked below Land Rover for dependability! We are often told there is less to go wrong with an ICE.... Well, what is left goes wrong all the time.
I am also irritated by "Elon has left the mainstream behind". That is not true. Elon has been releasing cars before they are ready and allowing the public to suffer as can be seen in the JD Power survey. If VW had done any of that, they would be destroyed. VW cheated on emissions tests and it cost them billions. Elon says your car can drive itself and it costs other people their lives. That is why the cult is so important and why I simply question anything Elon says by checking the truth.
It is such a terrible message to kids....my kids. Elon and Trump can lie their way to billions and treat those around them like garbage. That is why I hate Elon.
Why are they brain washed? If they like their cars then that's fine. Maybe they haven't had problems with theirs?I am also irritated by "Elon has left the mainstream behind". That is not true. Elon has been releasing cars before they are ready and allowing the public to suffer as can be seen in the JD Power survey. If VW had done any of that, they would be destroyed. VW cheated on emissions tests and it cost them billions. Elon says your car can drive itself and it costs other people their lives. That is why the cult is so important and why I simply question anything Elon says by checking the truth.
It is such a terrible message to kids....my kids. Elon and Trump can lie their way to billions and treat those around them like garbage. That is why I hate Elon.
My Elise is by far the most unreliable car I have ever owned. Doesn't mean that I've been brainwashed by Lotus to say it.
h0b0 said:
Let's take a look at the Model 3 MCU (screen). When it was released the MCU was set to log everything. In the world of developing software you only use log everything if there is a bug you are trying to find. The volume of logs is crazy. At release, Tesla knew the memory in the MCU had a finite life span and with the current logging would be dead in a couple of years. They had 2 options...1) set logging to normal levels which would extend the life to a reasonable level. 2) ship the cars as is and deal with it in a couple of years when a st storm happens.
They went with option 2.... OK now we are 2 years later and, as they knew about the issue how did they resolve it? Back to 2 options 1) Replace the MCU under warranty and set logging to normal, or 2) charge full retail for a replacement with the same memory and still set to full logging.
Yup, they chose option 2.
the number of write cycles on solid state memory is exactly the sort of thing a software developer would not even being contemplating could casue a problem in 7 years time whilst developing a something as complicated as a car OS with autonomous driving, in the early days they needed huge amounts of data to help develop the systems, they also use that data to prove some of the bullst storm happens.They went with option 2.... OK now we are 2 years later and, as they knew about the issue how did they resolve it? Back to 2 options 1) Replace the MCU under warranty and set logging to normal, or 2) charge full retail for a replacement with the same memory and still set to full logging.
Yup, they chose option 2.
t owners have come out with about crashes.they have reduced the amount of logging significantly; however, it was obviously their fault so they should have organised a free exchange program where owners could swap MCUs for ones with new storage chips.
as for the battery capping Tesla like Apple are paranoid about bad press, and with good reason, one car in 2 billion miles travelled catches fire and its global front page news (ignoring the 3600 ICE vehicles that caught fire that day) with half a million tesla hating trolls pilling in on how s
t and dangerous EVs are, the same for auto pilot crashes. Were it was totally unacceptable was just capping the battery without working with the owners, they should have offered a prorate payment for amount of battery added to the buffer or offered a discounted replacement based on the age and millage of the carEdited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 2nd June 15:30
98elise said:
h0b0 said:
I have gone from being a potential buyer to, what I consider, a fact checker. When I test drove the P85D I was very impressed and saw the future of cars. My issue is not with the company, it is Elon Musk. The man has taken everyone for fools by his constant lies. It went from "optimistic" delivery dates to fictitious products. I have very intelligent friends who have given themselves over to his cult. On my short road 25% of cars are teslas. Most of the owners seem brain washed into telling me how perfect their cars are even though the facts tell a very different story. JD Power has them ranked below Land Rover for dependability! We are often told there is less to go wrong with an ICE.... Well, what is left goes wrong all the time.
I am also irritated by "Elon has left the mainstream behind". That is not true. Elon has been releasing cars before they are ready and allowing the public to suffer as can be seen in the JD Power survey. If VW had done any of that, they would be destroyed. VW cheated on emissions tests and it cost them billions. Elon says your car can drive itself and it costs other people their lives. That is why the cult is so important and why I simply question anything Elon says by checking the truth.
It is such a terrible message to kids....my kids. Elon and Trump can lie their way to billions and treat those around them like garbage. That is why I hate Elon.
Why are they brain washed? If they like their cars then that's fine. Maybe they haven't had problems with theirs?I am also irritated by "Elon has left the mainstream behind". That is not true. Elon has been releasing cars before they are ready and allowing the public to suffer as can be seen in the JD Power survey. If VW had done any of that, they would be destroyed. VW cheated on emissions tests and it cost them billions. Elon says your car can drive itself and it costs other people their lives. That is why the cult is so important and why I simply question anything Elon says by checking the truth.
It is such a terrible message to kids....my kids. Elon and Trump can lie their way to billions and treat those around them like garbage. That is why I hate Elon.
My Elise is by far the most unreliable car I have ever owned. Doesn't mean that I've been brainwashed by Lotus to say it.
Some background here. I used to be responsible for Customer Experience for a large organization. Tesla had incredible NPS scores which were the envy of all industries. As part of my role I had to investigate the connection between "sentiment" and data driven reality. I had C-Level people asking me to replicate Elon's magic. I understand the difference between managing perception and reality but I feel obliged to deliver a decent reality.
Bugger, today on Piston heads has been like a session on Sigmund Freud's couch for me.
98elise said:
Why are they brain washed? If they like their cars then that's fine. Maybe they haven't had problems with theirs?
My Elise is by far the most unreliable car I have ever owned. Doesn't mean that I've been brainwashed by Lotus to say it.
Yep.My Elise is by far the most unreliable car I have ever owned. Doesn't mean that I've been brainwashed by Lotus to say it.
I have had multiple problems with brand new Astons, Morgans and a Lamborghini. Zero issues with my Tesla within a similar mileage range.
Can't say I'm too bothered what Elon says on Twitter - the cars are good and the infrastructure works well. I can't see the company folding as the business experts on here predicted.
NDA said:
I can't see the company folding as the business experts on here predicted.
Point to the last post that even hinted at the company failing? This thread started when Tesla were in a hole and Musk later admitted they were weeks away from failing. Since then its been about stupid market valuations and Musk and his behaviour. .
You get a more balanced debate on TMC than you can on here about the market.
NDA said:
98elise said:
Why are they brain washed? If they like their cars then that's fine. Maybe they haven't had problems with theirs?
My Elise is by far the most unreliable car I have ever owned. Doesn't mean that I've been brainwashed by Lotus to say it.
Yep.My Elise is by far the most unreliable car I have ever owned. Doesn't mean that I've been brainwashed by Lotus to say it.
I have had multiple problems with brand new Astons, Morgans and a Lamborghini. Zero issues with my Tesla within a similar mileage range.
Can't say I'm too bothered what Elon says on Twitter - the cars are good and the infrastructure works well. I can't see the company folding as the business experts on here predicted.
I thought the game plan was genius.
Don't the SEC realise Elon is Tesla...
ZesPak said:
I was mostly agreeing with you until you mentioned VW.
They literally said fk off to measures to control air quality and cheated on them for an extended period of time in a big part of their line-up. That is ignoring that they were basically founded by AH himself, of course.
Godwin's law invoked, only a Tesla cultist would divert a conversation away from Tesla problems by digging up Adolf Hitler. It's just bizarre. They literally said f
k off to measures to control air quality and cheated on them for an extended period of time in a big part of their line-up. That is ignoring that they were basically founded by AH himself, of course.
Look, over there - a pigeon. Nothing to see here, nothing at all. Just stop looking you morons.....
Smiljan said:
Godwin's law invoked, only a Tesla cultist would divert a conversation away from Tesla problems by digging up Adolf Hitler. It's just bizarre.
Look, over there - a pigeon. Nothing to see here, nothing at all. Just stop looking you morons.....
This thread has been running for years, I bet we're well past Godwin's law.Look, over there - a pigeon. Nothing to see here, nothing at all. Just stop looking you morons.....
Saying "Poor old VW would never get away with a software tweak removing range" is just as delusional as saying "Tesla is undervalued".
BTW, whoever brought up VW first was the first to invoke Godwin's law
.Nope just you mentioned Nazis but I’ll let you off because it’s inevitable.
Happily you and me can at least have a laugh on this thread knowing it’s not really that serious, Tesla certainly is entertaining to follow.
I’m eagerly awaiting next weeks facelift “launch” event so I can amuse myself with it despite it being a refresh of a 10 year old design that hasn’t sold that well. In a way I’m glad it’s just another facelift as of all the cars they make, I find the Model S to be the best looking one (and you get to keep that life saving radar protection).
To all the people who actually put down money and bought the Model 3, enjoy the car and take no notice of my idle chat on here. They are good EVs, if you get a good one it might not let you down,
Just please, please don’t ever utter that fateful phrase of the Tesla faithful
“I love my Tesla but…..”
Happily you and me can at least have a laugh on this thread knowing it’s not really that serious, Tesla certainly is entertaining to follow.
I’m eagerly awaiting next weeks facelift “launch” event so I can amuse myself with it despite it being a refresh of a 10 year old design that hasn’t sold that well. In a way I’m glad it’s just another facelift as of all the cars they make, I find the Model S to be the best looking one (and you get to keep that life saving radar protection).
To all the people who actually put down money and bought the Model 3, enjoy the car and take no notice of my idle chat on here. They are good EVs, if you get a good one it might not let you down,
Just please, please don’t ever utter that fateful phrase of the Tesla faithful
“I love my Tesla but…..”
ZesPak said:
I love my Tesla but I'm well aware that it's not magic sauce.
Amidoingitrite?
You will be able to choose from a selection of magic sauces....Amidoingitrite?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-02...
hyphen said:
ZesPak said:
I love my Tesla but I'm well aware that it's not magic sauce.
Amidoingitrite?
You will be able to choose from a selection of magic sauces....Amidoingitrite?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-02...
now his brother, Kimbal, just happens to own a series of restaurants. Perhaps again Elon Musk will transfer funds from Tesla to save another venture from going under to line his brothers pockets further.Surely not though, that isn't what a respectable billionaire leader of a successful car company would do. Is it?
I mean taking shareholders money and passing it onto a family member never did any harm did it?
Edited by Smiljan on Thursday 3rd June 15:01
ZesPak said:
I love my Tesla but I'm well aware that it's not magic sauce.
Amidoingitrite?
No it usually works like thisAmidoingitrite?
I love my Tesla but its been into the service centre five times this month.
I love my Tesla but it keeps crashing into parked Police cars.
I love my Tesla but the fit and finish is a bit shoddy.
I love my Tesla but the MCU keeps rebooting while I'm driving.
I think you get the picture
Interesting take from Munro, he's been quite taken with Tesla ever sinds his TM3 and MY teardown, but he's always interesting to listen to as he's got a lot of engineering knowledge about these cars.
https://youtu.be/sIQwsbTjJ0g?t=753
Basically he believes that Tesla and the Chinese companies will grow, while "legacy" manufacturers will shrink. Now that's something I hadn't heard and seems hard to fathom at this point. But even earlier in this video he talks about his time with Ford and how they didn't believe the Japanese were going to be an issue...
PS: His comment on the i3 just before this is quite spot on in my opinion. I know he teared one down completely but his take is simply: it's an incredible package that's let down hugely by its styling.
https://youtu.be/sIQwsbTjJ0g?t=753
Basically he believes that Tesla and the Chinese companies will grow, while "legacy" manufacturers will shrink. Now that's something I hadn't heard and seems hard to fathom at this point. But even earlier in this video he talks about his time with Ford and how they didn't believe the Japanese were going to be an issue...
PS: His comment on the i3 just before this is quite spot on in my opinion. I know he teared one down completely but his take is simply: it's an incredible package that's let down hugely by its styling.
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