How long have we got ??

[rscott]

Gojira said:

Evanivitch said:

Gojira said:

So how do superchargers output more than is going in - if Elon can manage that trick on a permanent basis, he's solved all the worlds energy problems!

By a combination of using battery buffers, pairing (on V2) and the simple fact that batteries won't all accept the maximum available charge rate due to thermal limitations.

Mouse Rat's incorrect statement that if you see a full rack of Tesla's on a Supercharger they'll be dramatically reduced in charge rate is wrong in all real world scenarios.

Even if each supercharger is subject to several consecutive charges, the buffer system will charge as the battery tapers the charge rate due to thermal limitations.

Did you read what I wrote?

If a Supercharger site can provide more output power over say, a week, than the input feed can supply, Tesla have solved the worlds energy problems...

The power to recharge the Supercharger batteries still has to come down the feed to the site!

Which isn't a problem as the Superchargers aren't running at full power 24x7, so they'll top up the batteries overnight and when they're not in use.

[Evanivitch]

Gojira said:

Did you read what I wrote?

If a Supercharger site can provide more output power over say, a week, than the input feed can supply, Tesla have solved the worlds energy problems...

The power to recharge the Supercharger batteries still has to come down the feed to the site!

Do you understand what batteries are? Do you understand what use cases are? Do you understand how EVs don't charge at the maximum available rate?

When you say you have experience, are you an engineer or a project manager? Because your technical knowledge is incredibly low for someone that is supposedly involved in this industry and infrastructure development.

[Gojira]

Evanivitch said:

Gojira said:

Did you read what I wrote?

If a Supercharger site can provide more output power over say, a week, than the input feed can supply, Tesla have solved the worlds energy problems...

The power to recharge the Supercharger batteries still has to come down the feed to the site!

Do you understand what batteries are? Do you understand what use cases are? Do you understand how EVs don't charge at the maximum available rate?

When you say you have experience, are you an engineer or a project manager? Because your technical knowledge is incredibly low for someone that is supposedly involved in this industry and infrastructure development.

Wind the rant down, Sunshine

I'm not the one who is involved in the industry, but I do know what batteries are, what a use case is and that Teslas don't always charge at the maximum rate...

But your hypothetical 10x2 supercharger site, on Mouse Rat's 630A 3 phase feed would just about keep 2 of those 120kW chargers running 24/7, or all 20 of them for 2 1/2 hours a day. That'd be a total of 100 half-hour charges across the site, per day

And as a long term average, batteries won't let you get more power out than that, because they'll need to recharge, too, down the same feed.

The batteries will help with load balancing, but they don't magically create power out of nothing, unless they've changed the laws of Physics while I wasn't looking

Even at Ionity's rates, that'll take a while to cover the cost of the kit...

[rscott]

Interesting link here - https://teslatap.com/articles/supercharger-supergu... - shows actual power consumption during charge and is clear that full power is only needed for a relatively small part of the charging cycle.

[Gojira]

rscott said:

Interesting link here - https://teslatap.com/articles/supercharger-supergu... - shows actual power consumption during charge and is clear that full power is only needed for a relatively small part of the charging cycle.

Thanks, that does make for an interesting read, so I'll go and have a think

[jjwilde]

Gojira said:

Wind the rant down, Sunshine

I'm not the one who is involved in the industry, but I do know what batteries are, what a use case is and that Teslas don't always charge at the maximum rate...

But your hypothetical 10x2 supercharger site, on Mouse Rat's 630A 3 phase feed would just about keep 2 of those 120kW chargers running 24/7, or all 20 of them for 2 1/2 hours a day. That'd be a total of 100 half-hour charges across the site, per day

And as a long term average, batteries won't let you get more power out than that, because they'll need to recharge, too, down the same feed.

The batteries will help with load balancing, but they don't magically create power out of nothing, unless they've changed the laws of Physics while I wasn't looking

Even at Ionity's rates, that'll take a while to cover the cost of the kit...

Do you think the sites have any significant use overnight? Well that's when those battery banks recharge. It's as simple as that. Yet it does not fit your agenda so you're pretending to not understand.

[Gojira]

jjwilde said:

Gojira said:

Wind the rant down, Sunshine

I'm not the one who is involved in the industry, but I do know what batteries are, what a use case is and that Teslas don't always charge at the maximum rate...

But your hypothetical 10x2 supercharger site, on Mouse Rat's 630A 3 phase feed would just about keep 2 of those 120kW chargers running 24/7, or all 20 of them for 2 1/2 hours a day. That'd be a total of 100 half-hour charges across the site, per day

And as a long term average, batteries won't let you get more power out than that, because they'll need to recharge, too, down the same feed.

The batteries will help with load balancing, but they don't magically create power out of nothing, unless they've changed the laws of Physics while I wasn't looking

Even at Ionity's rates, that'll take a while to cover the cost of the kit...

Do you think the sites have any significant use overnight? Well that's when those battery banks recharge. It's as simple as that. Yet it does not fit your agenda so you're pretending to not understand.

I'll explain it in simpler terms that you might understand...

On Mouse Rats figures, the site has a 630 amp feed at 415 volts, for a standard 3 phase supply.

That gives an input to the site of 630x415 watts, or 261.5 kilowatts

over 24 hours that gives 261.5x24 or 6275 kilowatthours of energy (6.275 megawatt hours, or about 1/20th of the original capacity of the australian megabattery!)

divide 6275 kwhr by 120kw, and you get 52.3 hours of charging time, to spread over all the chargers on the site.

If less than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the surplus is available to charge the site batteries, and all is fine.
If more than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the exess will have to come from the site batteries, and if that continues for long enough, they'll run down.

That's not having an agenda, thats basic maths and physics.

Now if the site has a bigger feed, then obviously the site could do more charging, but no-one argued with Mouse Rats numbers for that, as far as I'm aware

[anonymous-user]

jjwilde said:

Gojira said:

Wind the rant down, Sunshine

I'm not the one who is involved in the industry, but I do know what batteries are, what a use case is and that Teslas don't always charge at the maximum rate...

But your hypothetical 10x2 supercharger site, on Mouse Rat's 630A 3 phase feed would just about keep 2 of those 120kW chargers running 24/7, or all 20 of them for 2 1/2 hours a day. That'd be a total of 100 half-hour charges across the site, per day

And as a long term average, batteries won't let you get more power out than that, because they'll need to recharge, too, down the same feed.

The batteries will help with load balancing, but they don't magically create power out of nothing, unless they've changed the laws of Physics while I wasn't looking

Even at Ionity's rates, that'll take a while to cover the cost of the kit...

Do you think the sites have any significant use overnight? Well that's when those battery banks recharge. It's as simple as that. Yet it does not fit your agenda so you're pretending to not understand.

That doesn’t make his maths wrong.

[Evanivitch]

Gojira said:

I'll explain it in simpler terms that you might understand...

On Mouse Rats figures, the site has a 630 amp feed at 415 volts, for a standard 3 phase supply.

That gives an input to the site of 630x415 watts, or 261.5 kilowatts

over 24 hours that gives 261.5x24 or 6275 kilowatthours of energy (6.275 megawatt hours, or about 1/20th of the original capacity of the australian megabattery!)

divide 6275 kwhr by 120kw, and you get 52.3 hours of charging time, to spread over all the chargers on the site.

If less than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the surplus is available to charge the site batteries, and all is fine.
If more than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the exess will have to come from the site batteries, and if that continues for long enough, they'll run down.

That's not having an agenda, thats basic maths and physics.

Now if the site has a bigger feed, then obviously the site could do more charging, but no-one argued with Mouse Rats numbers for that, as far as I'm aware

Let's not forget the original quote.

Mouse Rat said:

Tesla chargers. Using Tesla as an example. Around the UK you will see banks of super chargers installed at a services stations and such like. We might think, great, 12 Tesla can plug in and charge up in 30 minutes.
No.
While 1 or 2 cars maybe able to charge at 100kW plus, a dozen cars charging at once would limit the charging capacity to 22kW, 15kW or maybe 7kW per vehicle.

But now we seem to be discussing what happens when there are Tesla's continuously charging at every station over 24 hours.

What a joke.

[Gojira]

Evanivitch said:

Gojira said:

I'll explain it in simpler terms that you might understand...

On Mouse Rats figures, the site has a 630 amp feed at 415 volts, for a standard 3 phase supply.

That gives an input to the site of 630x415 watts, or 261.5 kilowatts

over 24 hours that gives 261.5x24 or 6275 kilowatthours of energy (6.275 megawatt hours, or about 1/20th of the original capacity of the australian megabattery!)

divide 6275 kwhr by 120kw, and you get 52.3 hours of charging time, to spread over all the chargers on the site.

If less than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the surplus is available to charge the site batteries, and all is fine.
If more than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the exess will have to come from the site batteries, and if that continues for long enough, they'll run down.

That's not having an agenda, thats basic maths and physics.

Now if the site has a bigger feed, then obviously the site could do more charging, but no-one argued with Mouse Rats numbers for that, as far as I'm aware

Let's not forget the original quote.

Mouse Rat said:

Tesla chargers. Using Tesla as an example. Around the UK you will see banks of super chargers installed at a services stations and such like. We might think, great, 12 Tesla can plug in and charge up in 30 minutes.
No.
While 1 or 2 cars maybe able to charge at 100kW plus, a dozen cars charging at once would limit the charging capacity to 22kW, 15kW or maybe 7kW per vehicle.

But now we seem to be discussing what happens when there are Tesla's continuously charging at every station over 24 hours.

What a joke.

Did you actually read what I wrote, or were the words too big for you?

The reference to 24 hours in the calculation was for the amount of charge available from the grid down the specified feed.

I really don't expect any of the individual chargers to be charging cars for 24 hours a day!

Is that simple enough for you?

[Evanivitch]

Gojira said:

Did you actually read what I wrote, or were the words too big for you?

The reference to 24 hours in the calculation was for the amount of charge available from the grid down the specified feed.

I really don't expect any of the individual chargers to be charging cars for 24 hours a day!

Is that simple enough for you?

Wind the rant down, sunshine

[Gojira]

Evanivitch said:

Gojira said:

Did you actually read what I wrote, or were the words too big for you?

The reference to 24 hours in the calculation was for the amount of charge available from the grid down the specified feed.

I really don't expect any of the individual chargers to be charging cars for 24 hours a day!

Is that simple enough for you?

Wind the rant down, sunshine

Ho Ho Ho....

At least I tried to answer your questions...

I should know better, shouldn't I?

[granada203028]

Gojira said:

I'll explain it in simpler terms that you might understand...

On Mouse Rats figures, the site has a 630 amp feed at 415 volts, for a standard 3 phase supply.

That gives an input to the site of 630x415 watts, or 261.5 kilowatts

over 24 hours that gives 261.5x24 or 6275 kilowatthours of energy (6.275 megawatt hours, or about 1/20th of the original capacity of the australian megabattery!)

divide 6275 kwhr by 120kw, and you get 52.3 hours of charging time, to spread over all the chargers on the site.

If less than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the surplus is available to charge the site batteries, and all is fine.
If more than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the exess will have to come from the site batteries, and if that continues for long enough, they'll run down.

That's not having an agenda, thats basic maths and physics.

Now if the site has a bigger feed, then obviously the site could do more charging, but no-one argued with Mouse Rats numbers for that, as far as I'm aware

Minor correction, 3 phase at 630A 415V would be 630 x 415 x 1.73 or 630 x 240 x 3 = 454KW. A further very minor correction might be UK standard mains adopted the European standard I thought of 230/400V but now we are leaving...

[Gojira]

granada203028 said:

Gojira said:

I'll explain it in simpler terms that you might understand...

On Mouse Rats figures, the site has a 630 amp feed at 415 volts, for a standard 3 phase supply.

That gives an input to the site of 630x415 watts, or 261.5 kilowatts

over 24 hours that gives 261.5x24 or 6275 kilowatthours of energy (6.275 megawatt hours, or about 1/20th of the original capacity of the australian megabattery!)

divide 6275 kwhr by 120kw, and you get 52.3 hours of charging time, to spread over all the chargers on the site.

If less than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the surplus is available to charge the site batteries, and all is fine.
If more than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the exess will have to come from the site batteries, and if that continues for long enough, they'll run down.

That's not having an agenda, thats basic maths and physics.

Now if the site has a bigger feed, then obviously the site could do more charging, but no-one argued with Mouse Rats numbers for that, as far as I'm aware

Minor correction, 3 phase at 630A 415V would be 630 x 415 x 1.73 or 630 x 240 x 3 = 454KW. A further very minor correction might be UK standard mains adopted the European standard I thought of 230/400V but now we are leaving...

Thanks for that - I thought there was something odd in my sums....

So that means you could get about 90 hours charging out of the feed, but you'd still need a big battery pack to smooth the load if more than three chargers were used at the same time.

[Mikehig]

Gojira said:

granada203028 said:

Gojira said:

I'll explain it in simpler terms that you might understand...

On Mouse Rats figures, the site has a 630 amp feed at 415 volts, for a standard 3 phase supply.

That gives an input to the site of 630x415 watts, or 261.5 kilowatts

over 24 hours that gives 261.5x24 or 6275 kilowatthours of energy (6.275 megawatt hours, or about 1/20th of the original capacity of the australian megabattery!)

divide 6275 kwhr by 120kw, and you get 52.3 hours of charging time, to spread over all the chargers on the site.

If less than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the surplus is available to charge the site batteries, and all is fine.
If more than that is used to charge Teslas in 24 hours, the exess will have to come from the site batteries, and if that continues for long enough, they'll run down.

That's not having an agenda, thats basic maths and physics.

Now if the site has a bigger feed, then obviously the site could do more charging, but no-one argued with Mouse Rats numbers for that, as far as I'm aware

Minor correction, 3 phase at 630A 415V would be 630 x 415 x 1.73 or 630 x 240 x 3 = 454KW. A further very minor correction might be UK standard mains adopted the European standard I thought of 230/400V but now we are leaving...

Thanks for that - I thought there was something odd in my sums....

So that means you could get about 90 hours charging out of the feed, but you'd still need a big battery pack to smooth the load if more than three chargers were used at the same time.

So, if I've got this right, the site could "dispense" around 11,000 kWh per day (ignoring losses). If the average charge is 50 kWh then that works out at 220 vehicles per day or a bit less than 10 per hour, average. Of course most of the charging will be through the day so the batteries will have to be fairly chunky to allow, say, 20 cars per hour to charge through a good part of the day.
Interesting figures: they show the challenge of catering for large numbers of EVs, especially as charging speeds increase.

[powerstroke]

Mouse Rat said:

powerstroke said:

Until there are enough electric cars and vans to cause overloads and power cuts ??
Or will smart metering save us at the expense of people being able to go about their business ..
Will sorry I'm late the car didn't charge soon become a common excuse ???

The UK Grid can produce enough power in the short to medium term.

The problem is local power infrastructure cannot cope with all the potential chargers needed.

Few of examples.

Most houses, especially on estates have a local supply and transformer feeding the area. These are rated to a diversity factor which is roughly around 2kW per house. In theory every house can have a 7kW charger installed hence at the moment home charging is fine… but you can see the future problem. Tin foil hat time, I honestly believe home charging will be taxed or regulated at some point (like hose pipe bans).

Tesla chargers. Using Tesla as an example. Around the UK you will see banks of super chargers installed at a services stations and such like. We might think, great, 12 Tesla can plug in and charge up in 30 minutes.
No.
While 1 or 2 cars maybe able to charge at 100kW plus, a dozen cars charging at once would limit the charging capacity to 22kW, 15kW or maybe 7kW per vehicle.

Installation of super charger is tricky. Most super chargers need a local 250A or 400A 3phase supply. This can be expensive to supply in a residential area or small commercial areas. ei Petrol stations, multi story car parks in many cases limited to a 63A or 100A supply.

While there are method to get over these problems (new utility supplies, battery storage, hydrogen storage etc) someone has to pay. Only at them moment with goverments grants is this semi attractive.

Unless the government standardises on a charging infrastructure and tariffs, BEV's will fail to become mainstream.

The obvious answer would seem to be the small scale local nuclear generating plants , less transmisssion losses and cost effective , so perhaps we could fit massive numbers of charging points in multi story carparks and build power hungry industries
in the same area as the generating plant ....

[poing]

powerstroke said:

Mouse Rat said:

powerstroke said:

Until there are enough electric cars and vans to cause overloads and power cuts ??
Or will smart metering save us at the expense of people being able to go about their business ..
Will sorry I'm late the car didn't charge soon become a common excuse ???

The UK Grid can produce enough power in the short to medium term.

The problem is local power infrastructure cannot cope with all the potential chargers needed.

Few of examples.

Most houses, especially on estates have a local supply and transformer feeding the area. These are rated to a diversity factor which is roughly around 2kW per house. In theory every house can have a 7kW charger installed hence at the moment home charging is fine… but you can see the future problem. Tin foil hat time, I honestly believe home charging will be taxed or regulated at some point (like hose pipe bans).

Tesla chargers. Using Tesla as an example. Around the UK you will see banks of super chargers installed at a services stations and such like. We might think, great, 12 Tesla can plug in and charge up in 30 minutes.
No.
While 1 or 2 cars maybe able to charge at 100kW plus, a dozen cars charging at once would limit the charging capacity to 22kW, 15kW or maybe 7kW per vehicle.

Installation of super charger is tricky. Most super chargers need a local 250A or 400A 3phase supply. This can be expensive to supply in a residential area or small commercial areas. ei Petrol stations, multi story car parks in many cases limited to a 63A or 100A supply.

While there are method to get over these problems (new utility supplies, battery storage, hydrogen storage etc) someone has to pay. Only at them moment with goverments grants is this semi attractive.

Unless the government standardises on a charging infrastructure and tariffs, BEV's will fail to become mainstream.

The obvious answer would seem to be the small scale local nuclear generating plants , less transmisssion losses and cost effective , so perhaps we could fit massive numbers of charging points in multi story carparks and build power hungry industries
in the same area as the generating plant ....

The tech is changing though so any calculations are out of date almost immediately. Several companies are working on higher density batteries and batteries with greater charging efficiency so charging habits will change in line with this. There is also a push for grazing, charging little and often, some of these involve induction charging at junctions and bus stops etc.

The grid can cope just fine and the infrastructure is entirely possible, it just changes the way we use our cars and getting people to do that will be the biggest problem.