How long have we got ??
Discussion
poing said:
He is 100% correct that companies providing charge points need to make it simple. I've never understood why charging companies took on this stupid method for charging your car.
Oh i agree on that entirely, should be a simple tap and go pay option with a credit card minimum.We are lucky here in NZ for me its either Tesla or chargers that are almost exclusively on one network accessed by one app or rfid tag.
RobDickinson said:
Oh i agree on that entirely, should be a simple tap and go pay option with a credit card minimum.
We are lucky here in NZ for me its either Tesla or chargers that are almost exclusively on one network accessed by one app or rfid tag.
Are those government funded or just one provider (beyond Tesla) doing all the chargers?We are lucky here in NZ for me its either Tesla or chargers that are almost exclusively on one network accessed by one app or rfid tag.
I think even without government funding the government could easily force all the companies to use a single system.
poing said:
Are those government funded or just one provider (beyond Tesla) doing all the chargers?
I think even without government funding the government could easily force all the companies to use a single system.
Its a mix, most of the fast chargers belong to chargenet who are mostly privately funded (do get some gov grants) - some gov funded chargers and some other private ones (power companies, local gov etc). I dont think theres been a significant % of gov money into it.I think even without government funding the government could easily force all the companies to use a single system.
poing said:
Are those government funded or just one provider (beyond Tesla) doing all the chargers?
I think even without government funding the government could easily force all the companies to use a single system.
Yeah, that's just bad regulation. Same over here where you find hundreds of operators and even more charge card providers -- that of course all have multiple plans... Bit of reading on the main EV forum and one quickly figures out what the 2 or 3 cards (of the moment) are to make the experience (almost) painless. I think even without government funding the government could easily force all the companies to use a single system.
Still way to complex for something that needs to be very simple. Want a license (or even a grant) for a public charger? Here's the guideline on billing, here's the payment methods you need to provide. Simple. But ideas are easy. Implementation is hard.
Evanivitch said:
The dozen or so councils installing streetlight charging points disagree with you.
Yes sure if the cabling and grid connection is man enough then putting charging points on the existing infrastructure of the lamp post is sensible.But my point is the switch from Sodium to LED lighting saves a tiny amount to then spend on EV charging.
Hold on folks, I did some simple maths!
According to the RAC, the order of magnitude for cars is 255.0 billion miles driven in 2018.
In the same year, energy suppliers stated 306.58 tWh or 306 580 000 000 kWh.
Considering an EV does about 350wh/mi (they can do <300 in current cars though, but there's some charging losses and the like), this would add about 89 250 000 000 kwh or 89 tWh.
So if ALL cars at this moment are replaced by EV's, we'd need about 30% more electricity. This is not insignificant, but far from inconceivable.
As someone else said, at peak (2005) the UK was using 357 tWh. You'd be needing close to 400 tWh in total.
I did these maths before for a couple of European countries, they all come down to <30% extra electricity.
The big question is: who's going to clean up all the petrol stations?
According to the RAC, the order of magnitude for cars is 255.0 billion miles driven in 2018.
In the same year, energy suppliers stated 306.58 tWh or 306 580 000 000 kWh.
Considering an EV does about 350wh/mi (they can do <300 in current cars though, but there's some charging losses and the like), this would add about 89 250 000 000 kwh or 89 tWh.
So if ALL cars at this moment are replaced by EV's, we'd need about 30% more electricity. This is not insignificant, but far from inconceivable.
As someone else said, at peak (2005) the UK was using 357 tWh. You'd be needing close to 400 tWh in total.
I did these maths before for a couple of European countries, they all come down to <30% extra electricity.
The big question is: who's going to clean up all the petrol stations?
ZesPak said:
Hold on folks, I did some simple maths!
According to the RAC, the order of magnitude for cars is 255.0 billion miles driven in 2018.
In the same year, energy suppliers stated 306.58 tWh or 306 580 000 000 kWh.
Considering an EV does about 350wh/mi (they can do <300 in current cars though, but there's some charging losses and the like), this would add about 89 250 000 000 kwh or 89 tWh.
So if ALL cars at this moment are replaced by EV's, we'd need about 30% more electricity. This is not insignificant, but far from inconceivable.
As someone else said, at peak (2005) the UK was using 357 tWh. You'd be needing close to 400 tWh in total.
I did these maths before for a couple of European countries, they all come down to <30% extra electricity.
The big question is: who's going to clean up all the petrol stations?
What did you calculate the current spare capacity to be?According to the RAC, the order of magnitude for cars is 255.0 billion miles driven in 2018.
In the same year, energy suppliers stated 306.58 tWh or 306 580 000 000 kWh.
Considering an EV does about 350wh/mi (they can do <300 in current cars though, but there's some charging losses and the like), this would add about 89 250 000 000 kwh or 89 tWh.
So if ALL cars at this moment are replaced by EV's, we'd need about 30% more electricity. This is not insignificant, but far from inconceivable.
As someone else said, at peak (2005) the UK was using 357 tWh. You'd be needing close to 400 tWh in total.
I did these maths before for a couple of European countries, they all come down to <30% extra electricity.
The big question is: who's going to clean up all the petrol stations?
Terminator X said:
Didn't the NG qualify their statement with "better consumer engagement [to not all charge at the same time] and advances in technology both have a part to play"? So they are perhaps banking on technology getting them out of a spot of bother?
TX.
I think the BG be seen as extremely naive/stupid if they didn't think that advances in technology and consumer engagement will have a positive impact, bearing in mind how many billions are being poured into the renewables sector globally. I believe that it is now commonly accepted that renewable generated electricity is cheaper to produce than fossil fuel generated electricity and the costs are coming down all the time with global adoption of renewables.TX.
The outlook for our power supplies is worrying.
Demand is expected to start rising rapidly in the mid-20s as the government's measures to electrify everything take effect. It's often overlooked that electricity is only a part of our total energy consumption. Gas consumption is several times the electricity demand, in energy terms. Moving even a part of that over to electricity will be "challenging", to say the least.
In the same time frame all but one of our nukes will be decommissioned and, probably, all of our remaining coal plants. That will leave a major shortfall in dispatchable power and nothing is being built to fill that gap.
So what will happen during cold, still, murky weather like the last few days?
A look at gridwatch now shows how we would be struggling without those nuclear and coal plants:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
There's speculation that the Grid will indeed be able to cope - by rationing. Supposedly the later versions of smart meters will enable management of demand when supplies are inadequate. It would be very interesting if anyone here has specific technical knowledge about this and can comment whether it is feasible.
Personally, I'm looking into a simple battery back-up for the controls and pump of my gas heating. Longer term I may look at a generator.
Demand is expected to start rising rapidly in the mid-20s as the government's measures to electrify everything take effect. It's often overlooked that electricity is only a part of our total energy consumption. Gas consumption is several times the electricity demand, in energy terms. Moving even a part of that over to electricity will be "challenging", to say the least.
In the same time frame all but one of our nukes will be decommissioned and, probably, all of our remaining coal plants. That will leave a major shortfall in dispatchable power and nothing is being built to fill that gap.
So what will happen during cold, still, murky weather like the last few days?
A look at gridwatch now shows how we would be struggling without those nuclear and coal plants:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
There's speculation that the Grid will indeed be able to cope - by rationing. Supposedly the later versions of smart meters will enable management of demand when supplies are inadequate. It would be very interesting if anyone here has specific technical knowledge about this and can comment whether it is feasible.
Personally, I'm looking into a simple battery back-up for the controls and pump of my gas heating. Longer term I may look at a generator.
98elise said:
What did you calculate the current spare capacity to be?
Didn't have the numbers, honestly check my numbers, I mentioned that all cars needed to be replaced instantly which of course will never happen. If 50% of all new cars sold are EV, we'd still take over a decade to need as much electricity as we did in 2005.Call me an optimist, but I think by 2030 we might have figured out a way to produce as much as we did 25 years earlier
."We're going to run out of electricity" is a talking point that holds no ground in any sort of reality.
With V2G we can use the plugged in EV car fleet to help provide power to reduce the peak demands on the Grid.
An inter connector to Iceland with its unlimited supplies of Geothermal power would help and instead of wasting 106BN on reducing the travel time from London to Birmingham, how about providing the national grid with a proper North to Spine of high efficiency power cables.
In the Future North Africa could provide vast amounts of cheap solar.........
An inter connector to Iceland with its unlimited supplies of Geothermal power would help and instead of wasting 106BN on reducing the travel time from London to Birmingham, how about providing the national grid with a proper North to Spine of high efficiency power cables.
In the Future North Africa could provide vast amounts of cheap solar.........
ked #climateemergency powerstroke said:
Until there are enough electric cars and vans to cause overloads and power cuts ??
Or will smart metering save us at the expense of people being able to go about their business ..
Will sorry I'm late the car didn't charge soon become a common excuse ???
The UK Grid can produce enough power in the short to medium term.Or will smart metering save us at the expense of people being able to go about their business ..
Will sorry I'm late the car didn't charge soon become a common excuse ???
The problem is local power infrastructure cannot cope with all the potential chargers needed.
Few of examples.
Most houses, especially on estates have a local supply and transformer feeding the area. These are rated to a diversity factor which is roughly around 2kW per house. In theory every house can have a 7kW charger installed hence at the moment home charging is fine… but you can see the future problem. Tin foil hat time, I honestly believe home charging will be taxed or regulated at some point (like hose pipe bans).
Tesla chargers. Using Tesla as an example. Around the UK you will see banks of super chargers installed at a services stations and such like. We might think, great, 12 Tesla can plug in and charge up in 30 minutes.
No.
While 1 or 2 cars maybe able to charge at 100kW plus, a dozen cars charging at once would limit the charging capacity to 22kW, 15kW or maybe 7kW per vehicle.
Installation of super charger is tricky. Most super chargers need a local 250A or 400A 3phase supply. This can be expensive to supply in a residential area or small commercial areas. ei Petrol stations, multi story car parks in many cases limited to a 63A or 100A supply.
While there are method to get over these problems (new utility supplies, battery storage, hydrogen storage etc) someone has to pay. Only at them moment with goverments grants is this semi attractive.
Unless the government standardises on a charging infrastructure and tariffs, BEV's will fail to become mainstream.
kambites said:
Mouse Rat said:
Tin foil hat time, I honestly believe home charging will be taxed or regulated at some point (like hose pipe bans).
Very difficult to enforce, given it's possible to charge from a standard 3-pin plug. Mikehig said:
Is it too paranoid to anticipate that data from the vehicle itself could be used? Tin foil car covers?
I don't believe the British governement could compel foreign vehicle manufacturers to provide such information. I certainly don't think it would be worth the effort to try, there are easier ways to raise revenue from drivers once EVs go mainstream and market forces will do the grid load leveling without the goverment having to worry about it. What we might see, is a rule saying that all dedicated chargers have to be "smart" and capable of shutting down to avoid brown-outs.
Edited by kambites on Friday 24th January 16:20
kambites said:
What we might see, is a rule saying that all dedicated chargers have to be "smart" and capable of shutting down to avoid brown-outs.
That rule is already under consultation and is likelyto be introduced. Central control via the DCC (the same infrastructure used for Smart metering) would enable local DNOs to throttle charging speed if required, quite how this would operate is likely to be the subject of further debate.Edited by kambites on Friday 24th January 16:20
I could very easily see it moving to a world where the tech will allow people to set the time they normally leave the house, and the charger can make sure they have a full battery for that time, but it may be that instead of coming on at a full 7kW at midnight and charging for 2 hours, it comes on at 2 kW and charges for 6+ hours. This way there'd be far less demand on the grid and everyone would still get a full battery. It wouldn't be hard to allow an override either if, for some unusual reason, you were leaving the house at 3am as a one off.
Bear in mind that it's not plausible that entire streets of people are going to need to charge their 100kWh car from 0-100% all at the same time. Most people will be making more regular top ups, of smaller amounts (particularly to help pre-conditioning) so they really have no need of fast charging every night. What they need is a car that is charged by the time they leave for work.
Centrally controlling this will allow the grid to cope with demand without needing expensive upgrades, and shouldn't inconvenience anyone.
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