Hydrogen availability

[GT119]

Dave Hedgehog said:

GT119 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

2.666:1 was where we got to last time around.

What is the mechanism by which it will get tighter?

that does not take into account fuel cells are 40-60% effiencent and electric motors 90% (and a hydrogen vehicle has to use both)

It's based on comparing a renewable source for both, it came from VW and includes the electric motor/s.

[rscott]

GT119 said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

GT119 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

2.666:1 was where we got to last time around.

What is the mechanism by which it will get tighter?

that does not take into account fuel cells are 40-60% effiencent and electric motors 90% (and a hydrogen vehicle has to use both)

It's based on comparing a renewable source for both, it came from VW and includes the electric motor/s.

Assume that doesn't take into account the fact that quite a bit of the energy used to propel the vehicle can be recovered through regen? (something FCEVs can also do, but to a far lesser amount due to their small batteries)

[GT119]

rscott said:

GT119 said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

GT119 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

2.666:1 was where we got to last time around.

What is the mechanism by which it will get tighter?

that does not take into account fuel cells are 40-60% effiencent and electric motors 90% (and a hydrogen vehicle has to use both)

It's based on comparing a renewable source for both, it came from VW and includes the electric motor/s.

Assume that doesn't take into account the fact that quite a bit of the energy used to propel the vehicle can be recovered through regen? (something FCEVs can also do, but to a far lesser amount due to their small batteries)

It's not explicit in the graphic, but I would definitely assume it is included for both, partly why the efficiency spreads are shown.
When I've looked at these comparisons previously, including accounting for regen, the outcomes are similar.

[dvs_dave]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

So I’ve again completely destroyed your argument with facts, so you again respond by completely ignoring the points I was making (after snootily questioning them), instead offering up yet more denial and whataboutery. And now you’re pulling the victim card to boot. Jesus wept.

The case is overwhelmingly clear, yet you continue with your refusal to concede In any way. Why?

[anonymous-user]

Dave, you haven't done anything of the kind.
All you do is write your posts in a way where you want to feel that what you say is final.

This is an internet discussion forum. I have an opinion. You have an opinion.
The world is using and choosing hydrogen as well as batteries.
It's not dead like you seem to insist it is.
I am confident enough in it to feel that you're on the wrong track in this respect.
Feel free to feel otherwise.
And victim? No Dave, I'm not victimised in any way.
It was a helpful suggestion for yourself. Try not to take things personally and try not to make things personal.

[GT119]

VK, looking at the graphic I can't see the mechanism by which the ratio between them will get tighter over the passage of time, which of the hydrogen stages is going to improve in efficiency?

[anonymous-user]

GT119 said:

VK, looking at the graphic I can't see the mechanism by which the ratio between them will get tighter over the passage of time, which of the hydrogen stages is going to improve in efficiency?

The largest improvements I think in:

Electrolyser efficiency.
Transportation and storage.

Learning curve developments and improvements in the techniques and technology used.


Oh also at the same time reduction in the efficiency of BEV systems in the pursuit of faster charging and longer range. Eg megacharger!

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 27th November 20:10

[GT119]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It's less helpful that the individual blue bars under each stage show the cumulative effect rather than the stage efficiency.

Mounting the wind turbine to the roof of the car might improve things

[anonymous-user]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ah but with the wind behind you!
Hmmm maybe I haven't thought that through....

[Mikehig]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Let's see how that 3:1 ratio stands up to reality.

ITM's package electrolysers supply the H2 to the majority of the UK's fuelling stations. At maximum output they consume a bit over 63 kWh/kg of hydrogen which is produced at 20 bar.
Linde supply the compressor package which boosts the pressure to the 700 bar required, using a further 3.3 kWh/kg.
That makes a total of 66 kWh/kg.
A typical 5 kg "fill" equates to 330 kWh of electricity and gives a range of about 400 miles: approx 1.2 miles/kWh.
That's about one third of a typical EV and even less compared to the best.
3:1 looks pretty robust.

If you have better figures - real, hard data not puffery from some journal - rack 'em up.

[Gary C]

This has been interesting

Initially I posted due to my experience of running and maintaining a Hydrogen & Oxygen producing electrolysis plant and the dangers of storing and compressing hydrogen.

Then I was interested in exploring the possibilities of H2 as a transport fuel from a technical perspective.

Since then things seem to have degenerated.

[Mikehig]

Gary C said:

This has been interesting

Initially I posted due to my experience of running and maintaining a Hydrogen & Oxygen producing electrolysis plant and the dangers of storing and compressing hydrogen.

Then I was interested in exploring the possibilities of H2 as a transport fuel from a technical perspective.

Since then things seem to have degenerated.

I think you said you work at one of the AGRs but I can't remember which one. If it's Heysham did you appear on last night's BBC2 documentary?

[anonymous-user]

Discussing hydrogen is always problematic as the cult of the BEV always hijack it and send the discussion off on a tangent.

Linde and ITM have been pushing on site electrolysis hard and have reduced the energy requirements significantly over the last decade. Compared with BEV, it's relatively new technology.

We need a mix of solutions - long distance travel is best with a 50-100 mile EV only range and fuel cell to back it up. These can replace the diesel company cars, vans and HGV.

BEV works best for the 2nd car or station car for those who don't need long distance capability.

Blending the two will help us meet our aims with fewer infrastructure challenges.

But we will ultimately be directed both by taxation regimes and what the rest of the world does - 150kW charging is a serious challenge for large swathes of Europe.

[Gary C]

Mikehig said:

I think you said you work at one of the AGRs but I can't remember which one. If it's Heysham did you appear on last night's BBC2 documentary?

Ah yes.

I was on screen front and centre for about 3 seconds ! (meeting room shot, I had the dark blue shirt on)



We were running the maintenance shutdown (or outage as we call it) preparedness meeting. I got asked a question and immediately had a coughing fit.

[anonymous-user]

Mikehig said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Let's see how that 3:1 ratio stands up to reality.

ITM's package electrolysers supply the H2 to the majority of the UK's fuelling stations. At maximum output they consume a bit over 63 kWh/kg of hydrogen which is produced at 20 bar.
Linde supply the compressor package which boosts the pressure to the 700 bar required, using a further 3.3 kWh/kg.
That makes a total of 66 kWh/kg.
A typical 5 kg "fill" equates to 330 kWh of electricity and gives a range of about 400 miles: approx 1.2 miles/kWh.
That's about one third of a typical EV and even less compared to the best.
3:1 looks pretty robust.

If you have better figures - real, hard data not puffery from some journal - rack 'em up.

It's a bit late but have you considered the energy 'loss' of approx 15% to charge the BEV?
Because you've stated how efficient they are when the juice is in the car but I don't think you've mentioned what it takes to get the juice into the car.

I know that you can knock around 11kwh straight off the electrolyser's requirements with large scale industrial electrolysers. There is a German one, I forget the company name, they're circa 44kwh I think. And the compressor there isn't their most efficient. Think you can knock roughly 0.6kwh off that.

Also think the current Mirai is 0.76kg per 100km so equating to about 411 miles from that 5kg.

Pop some of those figures in and you clearly move away from 3:1. Many people are suggesting it's more like 2:1 now because of advancements in hydrogen prod.

There will be a range of efficiencies depending on how you produce the hydrogen. The case you've mentioned allows quick setup. It's not dependent on a plant elsewhere. While it might not be the most efficient in kWh per kg it can be more cost effective in some other respects. That's the beauty of hydrogen. I mentioned a hydrogen train on another thread that didn't even need to wait for the fixed hydrogen station to be built before it was operational as a mobile, modular filling point was used instead.


Also weight. I know the few current FCEVs haven't capitalised on this yet but an FCEV powertrain is a good 200 to 300 kg lighter than the BEV powertrain.
If you gain a percent or two for every 50kg removed then that's going to add up. I do think that is something that FCEV manufacturers will utilise when they become more established.

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 28th November 01:32

[JonnyVTEC]

Jeez how boring is this.

Unless you are doing something within the hydrogen fuel space then I’m not sure why you observe yourself as the authority you think you are. If you are working to progress the implementation of hydrogen your efforts would be best served doing that rather than rambling on and on and on this forum.

I just don’t get it. Go do something useful rather than winding people who clearly have knowledge on the subject - some are no longer posting on this thread which make it even more irrelevant. Shame we can’t run car on tedious drivel...

[Mikehig]

Gary C said:

Mikehig said:

I think you said you work at one of the AGRs but I can't remember which one. If it's Heysham did you appear on last night's BBC2 documentary?

Ah yes.

I was on screen front and centre for about 3 seconds ! (meeting room shot, I had the dark blue shirt on)



We were running the maintenance shutdown (or outage as we call it) preparedness meeting. I got asked a question and immediately had a coughing fit.

Sorry to say I missed your moment of stardom! Thought the programme gave a good picture of the plant and the team, even though it was pretty light on the tech. As an ex-PWR bod I would have liked to see some coverage of Sizewell.....if only they had built the other 7 or 8 that were planned!

[anonymous-user]

JonnyVTEC said:

Jeez how boring is this.

Unless you are doing something within the hydrogen fuel space then I’m not sure why you observe yourself as the authority you think you are. If you are working to progress the implementation of hydrogen your efforts would be best served doing that rather than rambling on and on and on this forum.

I just don’t get it. Go do something useful rather than winding people who clearly have knowledge on the subject - some are no longer posting on this thread which make it even more irrelevant. Shame we can’t run car on tedious drivel...

Let's make a deal.
Here it is:

I am interested in hydrogen.
This thread is about hydrogen.
I will post whatever I like about hydrogen on this thread which is about hydrogen.
I will try not to insult people.

You can do the same.
Or if you think the subject is boring then perhaps you can choose to read and post in threads about subjects you don't find boring.
Or stick my posts through one of those post blocker scripts so you don't have to see them.

Thank you.

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 28th November 01:33

[dvs_dave]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Please acknowledge the following:

2-3:1 well-to-wheel efficiency penalty of FCEV vs BEV.

1:9-12 H2 to CO2 ratio of producing hydrogen from natural gas.

Then we might start taking you a bit more seriously and feel less compelled to be mean to you.

Edited by dvs_dave on Saturday 28th November 05:15

[NMNeil]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Then hoist the sail and turn the engine off