Hydrogen availability

[GT119]

Bump.

Much of what is being discussed on the hydrogen vs BEV thread has been covered at length here. For this posters new to that thread, I'd recommended reading this one.

You will need a decent chunk of spare time of course!

[Mikehig]

GT119 said:

Bump.

Much of what is being discussed on the hydrogen vs BEV thread has been covered at length here. For this posters new to that thread, I'd recommended reading this one.

You will need a decent chunk of spare time of course!

You should have added a health warning!!

[gangzoom]

Are there really still only 13 hydrogen fuel stations in the UK, and nearly half of those look like research sites in Universities/energy head quarters.

So what do hydrogen fuel cell car owners do if they run out of hydrogen? Does the AA tow you to the nearest site like they would do an EV. What happens if you arrive and cannot access the site 24/7 - like a University one?

Is there an issue on refuelling if the 12V battery or traction battery is totally dead? I assume you need some initial power to run/monitor the fuel stack? On EVs it can be a right pain to recharge if the 12V is dead as well as the main pack.

Is there is finite life to the fuel connector seals given the high pressure involved at refuelling? What kind of service interval is needed if any?

Would be good to hear real life owners feedback on this kind of stuff.

https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-ans...

[Mikehig]

gangzoom: your question about availability brings us full circle! The OP said:

"Not sure if anyone else on here has a hydrogen car....
If so have you been suffering a lack of availability of hydrogen?
Not been able to get any since March.... expensive car park ornament!"

That was 10 months ago. As the thread is still stumbling along, zombie-like, it suggests the OP's vehicle is still gathering muck, leaves and bird droppings.....

[jjwilde]

Mikehig said:

gangzoom: your question about availability brings us full circle! The OP said:

"Not sure if anyone else on here has a hydrogen car....
If so have you been suffering a lack of availability of hydrogen?
Not been able to get any since March.... expensive car park ornament!"

That was 10 months ago. As the thread is still stumbling along, zombie-like, it suggests the OP's vehicle is still gathering muck, leaves and bird droppings.....

'Man can no longer buy windows phone apps' (etc).

[Throttle Body]

James May (jimbouk?) published an update on his hydrogen-powered Mirai in the Sunday Times last weekend. He was still very positive about what he calls the nicest car he has ever owned. But for most of the piece, he was extolling the virtues of the hydrogen fuel cell. rather than reviewing the car.

[jjwilde]

Throttle Body said:

James May (jimbouk?) published an update on his hydrogen-powered Mirai in the Sunday Times last weekend. He was still very positive about what he calls the nicest car he has ever owned. But for most of the piece, he was extolling the virtues of the hydrogen fuel cell. rather than reviewing the car.

At one point in about 2017 he said he accepted that maybe he was wrong about hydrogen, but now he's back at it, he just can't seem to let it go.

Of course we have no way of knowing his involvement in the hydrogen industry I guess.

I've also noticed on forums and comments sections in the last few weeks 'e-fuel' being mentioned over and over again, seems as if some PR agency is seeding it.

[Noah EV]

Are you insinuating James May is being a hydrogen industry stooge JJWilden?


You should back it up if that is what you say.

[C-Beams glitter]

While I have great admiration for Mr May and have truly enjoyed much of the entertainment he has provided, respectfully, I don't think I'd be going to him for car buying advice. Like anyone, he has opinions. Like anyone, he can also be wrong (or right). That he has a powerful voice compared to a nobody like me is simply a reflection of our empty-headed society - stand in front of a camera long enough and people think you know things. If folk want to give a TV personality and journo such power, that's up to them. No doubt he gets paid by someone to air his opinions, that's just how it works.

Extracting useful facts from the current mess is probably just going to have to wait until some time has passed and the various 'camps' face the fire of reality.

My opinion? H2 will have a place but not in personal transport. e-fuel may well have a bigger place for a good while (mainly aviation, heavy transport, petrochemicals), as long as they can solve the same fundamental problem as pure H2 - where does the power to make it come from and how, Oh, how, to deal with the horrific overall efficiency of these proposed paths. It could perhaps have a short life while the masses are weaned of burning stuff and possibly a much longer one for the chosen few who can afford it to run their ICE playthings that the bulk of us won't be allowed to own any more.

...and my opinion is worth as much or as little as the next persons. Unlike a lot it seems, I'm more than prepared to admit if I'm wrong.

[leef44]

Agreed, for personal transportation it makes less sense because it is not efficient as battery EV. It's heavy and public transportation where this can make a niche for itself where there is sustainable renewable energy source to make the electricity.

Our next world environment issue will be dealing with the heavy lithium mining causing world scale environmental damage.

Currently, because this is young technology, there is not the thought process or investment in environmental work for the damage which we will see the impact of in the next generation.

This is no different to fossil fuel or nuclear energy. We reaped the benefits of these and only a generation or two later do we start thinking about the environmental impact.

[jjwilde]

At this point they may as well run their cars on compressed air. I wonder how much energy you could get in to a hydrogen tank with compressed air.

You could also fill a compressed air tank at home.

Aside from that it would be just as silly as hydrogen although perhaps safer?

[GT119]

jjwilde said:

At this point they may as well run their cars on compressed air. I wonder how much energy you could get in to a hydrogen tank with compressed air.

You could also fill a compressed air tank at home.

Aside from that it would be just as silly as hydrogen although perhaps safer?

The tanks are rated at 700 bar.

To extract the energy in any kind of reasonable fashion from compressed air at that pressure is no mean feat. You can't just squirt it out the back to produce thrust!

It would require multiple turbine expansion stages and probably pre-heat at each stage, otherwise the exit temperature will be so low as to cause all sorts of problems. Most of the expanders I've seen are caked in ice.

Given that these things will have high rotational speeds, you then get into all the technical challenges that turbomachinery brings with respect to rotordynamics, bearings, seals, lubrication, stresses, etc. Add in stupidly high pressures and it fast becomes rocket science.

In any case I don't think there is nearly enough energy stored. A Mirai would in theory be able to store 55 kg of air, I'd expect that to last less than 10 minutes to produce the sort of average power output that is required.

[Evanivitch]

Welsh government still wasting money on hydrogen. Maybe useful if a major transport company is allowed on Irish Ferry it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56240...

[leef44]

Evanivitch said:

Welsh government still wasting money on hydrogen. Maybe useful if a major transport company is allowed on Irish Ferry it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56240...

The concept is sound - using H2 for HGV, rail freight, renewable tide energy.

The financing and logistics may have some gaps - is this just another govt grant subsidy grab in Wales? do they have the capability to deliver such infrastructure?

[caziques]

Australians at it as well

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/evs/124445587/hyu...

[Gary C]

jjwilde said:

At this point they may as well run their cars on compressed air. I wonder how much energy you could get in to a hydrogen tank with compressed air.
?

fk all

Remember, Hydrogen has more energy than petrol.

[RemarkLima]

GT119 said:

jjwilde said:

At this point they may as well run their cars on compressed air. I wonder how much energy you could get in to a hydrogen tank with compressed air.

You could also fill a compressed air tank at home.

Aside from that it would be just as silly as hydrogen although perhaps safer?

The tanks are rated at 700 bar.

To extract the energy in any kind of reasonable fashion from compressed air at that pressure is no mean feat. You can't just squirt it out the back to produce thrust!

It would require multiple turbine expansion stages and probably pre-heat at each stage, otherwise the exit temperature will be so low as to cause all sorts of problems. Most of the expanders I've seen are caked in ice.

Given that these things will have high rotational speeds, you then get into all the technical challenges that turbomachinery brings with respect to rotordynamics, bearings, seals, lubrication, stresses, etc. Add in stupidly high pressures and it fast becomes rocket science.

In any case I don't think there is nearly enough energy stored. A Mirai would in theory be able to store 55 kg of air, I'd expect that to last less than 10 minutes to produce the sort of average power output that is required.

PSA developed a compressed air engine... Looks like it's still a thing?

https://www.groupe-psa.com/en/newsroom/automotive-...

But looks like it's been shelved... But shows that the theory is there by the sounds of it?

[jjwilde]

Gary C said:

jjwilde said:

At this point they may as well run their cars on compressed air. I wonder how much energy you could get in to a hydrogen tank with compressed air.
?

fk all

Remember, Hydrogen has more energy than petrol.

Then how do compressed air cars store their energy? They were 'the future' about a decade ago, on BBC etc. it did have a feel of snake oil, but they certainly exist. Perhaps the range is awful or they contain multiple tanks?

[GT119]

jjwilde said:

Gary C said:

jjwilde said:

At this point they may as well run their cars on compressed air. I wonder how much energy you could get in to a hydrogen tank with compressed air.
?

fk all

Remember, Hydrogen has more energy than petrol.

Then how do compressed air cars store their energy? They were 'the future' about a decade ago, on BBC etc. it did have a feel of snake oil, but they certainly exist. Perhaps the range is awful or they contain multiple tanks?

Compressed air stores energy at around 0.1 kWh per litre at 700 bar. The Mirai tanks hold about 80 litres, so it's less than 10 kWh stored. You then you have the efficiency of the energy extraction process to factor in, the amount making it to the wheels is not going to be a great tbh.

When compressing the air it needs to be completely dried to avoid problems with water in the air during expansion and also actively cooled, otherwise the pressure will drop once it cools by itself. It then needs to be pre-heated before expanding it, otherwise the expansion temperature drop causes problems.

All of this consumes lots of energy, so the 'grid-to-wheel' efficiency of air is really poor, much worse than green hydrogen, it really has very little going for it. I'm not even sure anyone has tried it at 700 bar, I think earlier attempts were at half that pressure, so more like 0.05 kWh per litre.

[gangzoom]

So I see this thread has now literally turned into a discussion about hot air (or cold) .