Hydrogen availability
Discussion
Gary C said:
Now what we should do is build a barrage between Fleetwood and Barrow and flood Morecambe bay.
Dont care about power, just that if we could flood it enough, Morecambe would be underwater and I could have a beachfront property
win win.
(except for work being under water, doh, always forget about the station)
Seriously, we have exceptional tidal lagoons in this country, just the environmental damage would I believe be unacceptable to many.
Aye, although I don’t think tidal lagoons are much use when it comes to renewables storage solutions.....Dont care about power, just that if we could flood it enough, Morecambe would be underwater and I could have a beachfront property
win win.
(except for work being under water, doh, always forget about the station)
Seriously, we have exceptional tidal lagoons in this country, just the environmental damage would I believe be unacceptable to many.
dvs_dave said:
Gary C said:
Now what we should do is build a barrage between Fleetwood and Barrow and flood Morecambe bay.
Dont care about power, just that if we could flood it enough, Morecambe would be underwater and I could have a beachfront property
win win.
(except for work being under water, doh, always forget about the station)
Seriously, we have exceptional tidal lagoons in this country, just the environmental damage would I believe be unacceptable to many.
Aye, although I don’t think tidal lagoons are much use when it comes to renewables storage solutions.....Dont care about power, just that if we could flood it enough, Morecambe would be underwater and I could have a beachfront property
win win.
(except for work being under water, doh, always forget about the station)
Seriously, we have exceptional tidal lagoons in this country, just the environmental damage would I believe be unacceptable to many.
Quite significant limits I grant you, but they dont have to be totally linear (or sinusoidal)
Mikehig said:
Sadly I have to agree with Max_Torque about the lack of willpower to take on major engineering schemes.
However battery storage on the above scale would be incredibly expensive. The biggest one on the list posted earlier - the CEP Kuri Kuri project - is expected to cost about £1.5 bn for 4800 MWh. That works out at close to £400 bn for 1200 GWh.
But the prices are falling fast and the flexibility of batteries is what has made so many locations go with them. Australia is leading the field and one of their sites became in profit within a year of being turned on. There is mega money in instant control stored energy.However battery storage on the above scale would be incredibly expensive. The biggest one on the list posted earlier - the CEP Kuri Kuri project - is expected to cost about £1.5 bn for 4800 MWh. That works out at close to £400 bn for 1200 GWh.
Prices will drop even further as they start to use recycled batteries in the next 10 years.
Sure a few slow, deep storage facilities will always be needed, but the vast majority will move to battery tech.
jjwilde said:
Australia is leading the field and one of their sites became in profit within a year of being turned on. There is mega money in instant control stored energy.
.
But that's because Australia had massive stability issues which batteries are the perfect solution for. However, that isn't the case in the UK, and whilst batteries certainly have a place on the grid (including domestically), I really do hope that other technologies take precedence. Otherwise we really will have a mountain of batteries doing 10-20 years of daily cycles..
Evanivitch said:
Mikehig said:
This issue of storage was covered by David MacKay in his book "Sustainable Energy without the Hot Air". He quotes a UK capacity of 26 GWh of pumped storage at 4 sites and estimated that it could realistically be increased to 100 GWh. The capacity required to cover calm periods, like the last 7 days, he estimated at 1200 GWh.
And yet it's purely speculation unless you've done site surveys.Mikehig said:
Sadly I have to agree with Max_Torque about the lack of willpower to take on major engineering schemes.
However battery storage on the above scale would be incredibly expensive. The biggest one on the list posted earlier - the CEP Kuri Kuri project - is expected to cost about £1.5 bn for 4800 MWh. That works out at close to £400 bn for 1200 GWh.
I was all for tidal lagoons. By no means perfect, but certainly part of a portfolio of lower generation.However battery storage on the above scale would be incredibly expensive. The biggest one on the list posted earlier - the CEP Kuri Kuri project - is expected to cost about £1.5 bn for 4800 MWh. That works out at close to £400 bn for 1200 GWh.
Meanwhile Cardiff Bay has had approx £1Bn spent to become a leisure destination that produces zero power. Swansea apparently needed a business model...
Tidal lagoons seem to be like tide-stream generators. They are an attractive concept for a country with our tide ranges and flows but present some serious enginering challenges.
Sometime ago I read an engineering article on the tidal plant at La Rance in France. It has run for over 50 years but there have been issues with reliability due to the harsh environment. That may explain why there aren't more of them. The same sort of problems have so far defeated various pilot projects for tide-stream generators in places like the Pentland Firth (as far as I know).
dvs_dave: "What’s needed for this particular performance profile is long- duration pumped hydro. Stuff that can “charge up” gradually, storing a tremendous amount of equivalent GWh, which is then released over a longer period of time, say a week, during periods of low wind power output."
It would be the ideal solution. Unfortunately the UK probably does not have the topography for it: the volume required would be huge. We have just come out of a wind lull which lasted 10 - 11 days. If (when) that were to happen once we are the "Saudi Arabia" of wind, the GWh storage would have to be tremendous indeed.
Doing some very rough calcs, we could easily be looking at a shortfall of 15 GW during such a lull. That's 3600 GWh. If we could find suitable locations with a height difference of 200m, the working volume would need to be about 3,600 million
cubic metres (interpolating from MacKay's calcs). To put that in context, Kielder reservoir holds about 200 million cu m; Lake Windermere's volume is about 300 million cu m. It's not feasible.
It would be the ideal solution. Unfortunately the UK probably does not have the topography for it: the volume required would be huge. We have just come out of a wind lull which lasted 10 - 11 days. If (when) that were to happen once we are the "Saudi Arabia" of wind, the GWh storage would have to be tremendous indeed.
Doing some very rough calcs, we could easily be looking at a shortfall of 15 GW during such a lull. That's 3600 GWh. If we could find suitable locations with a height difference of 200m, the working volume would need to be about 3,600 million
cubic metres (interpolating from MacKay's calcs). To put that in context, Kielder reservoir holds about 200 million cu m; Lake Windermere's volume is about 300 million cu m. It's not feasible.
jjwilde said:
But we share our energy with various other countries to balance it for those reasons. You're not suggesting we go lone wolf like Texas?
Not at all. We've been drawing power through the interconnectors like mad through this last lull. Imports were up to 15% of our power supply. Fortunately there was power to spare, mostly from France.However those interconnectors have a max capacity of 5 GW. While that is due to increase, it won't be enough to fill the potential shortfall.
However the crucial question is whether there will be power available for us to import when we need it. There are some very big changes coming in the next few years. By 2022 Germany will have closed their remaining 7 nukes (9.5 GW) which provide about 12% of their power. Belgium has now decided to close its nukes (5.5 GW) as well, by 2025.
At the same time our dispatchable capacity is going to drop significantly. Drax is closing its 2 remaining coal units this month and the other 2 coal plants are closing this year and next (4 GW). All but one of our nukes are scheduled to close between next year and 2030 (6.4 GW). Hinckley C will redress some of the loss when it comes on stream in 5-6 years but, afaik, there's not much more dispatchable plant due online anytime soon. Meanwhile demand is expected to rise as electricity replaces gas and oil for heating, cooking and hot water - plus the move to EVs, of course.
It's a worrying outlook and it explains why the previous head of the Grid warned us to get ready for a major change in how electricity is supplied, from "when required" to "when available".
This piece must have been written by some of the best spin experts around.
The Mirai is the best car James May has ever owned, its 100% the future, but look over there a duck crossing the road, and his selling it. The end move on please, look another duck over there.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/james-may-selling-t...
The Mirai is the best car James May has ever owned, its 100% the future, but look over there a duck crossing the road, and his selling it. The end move on please, look another duck over there
.https://www.driving.co.uk/news/james-may-selling-t...
Makes sense to offer both BEV and plug-in FCEV versions. Particularly suitable for fleet operations based around a central hub/depot. Although they need to be offering it as an entire “ecosystem” with charging and hydrogen refueling infrastructure as part of the deal, which there is no mention of.
Without that critical piece, the H2 part of it will always struggle for adoption.
Without that critical piece, the H2 part of it will always struggle for adoption.
AmitG said:
That's a hefty 10kWh battery!Evanivitch said:
That's a hefty 10kWh battery!
It’s a plug-in hybrid FCEV with a 30mile pure BEV range. So it’s not completely dependent on hydrogen (like all other FCEVs such as the Toyota Mirai) which is a smart move given the state of H2 filling infrastructure.Edited by dvs_dave on Saturday 3rd April 00:52
dvs_dave said:
It’s a plug-in hybrid FCEV with a 30mile pure BEV range. So it’s not completely dependent on hydrogen (like all other FCEVs such as the Toyota Mirai) which is a smart move given the state of H2 filling infrastructure.
10kWh battery in a van will get you barely 20 miles of real life range, in winter fully loaded probably 15 miles max.Edited by dvs_dave on Saturday 3rd April 00:52
Lets hope any company that buys these things are based next door to one of the 13 hydrogen fuel stations in the UK.
I doubt these things will be cheap either, so why not just buy a diesel van?
gangzoom said:
10kWh battery in a van will get you barely 20 miles of real life range, in winter fully loaded probably 15 miles max.
Lets hope any company that buys these things are based next door to one of the 13 hydrogen fuel stations in the UK.
I doubt these things will be cheap either, so why not just buy a diesel van?
Don't worry, you are safe. They are not making RHD variant from this van.Lets hope any company that buys these things are based next door to one of the 13 hydrogen fuel stations in the UK.
I doubt these things will be cheap either, so why not just buy a diesel van?
In mainland Europe it is different story, France and Germany etc are investing heavily for hydrogen and h2 filling station network. Light, medium and heavy commercial vehicles are going to be a fuel cell vehicles. Also Renault is aiming FCEV-van market.
Stellantis uses 10kwh battery because of added performance not range. Their fuel cell stack is not as powerfull as Toyota's/Hyundai's. It is still a clever system, with small'sh battery you can have long range.
I know one BEV-van and it is very expensive and almost useless. Battery materials are getting more expensive all the time, so FCEV does have a potential competitive edge in pricing. I believe this is the reason why FCEV-passenger cars are the future.
LasseV said:
I know one BEV-van and it is very expensive and almost useless. Battery materials are getting more expensive all the time, so FCEV does have a potential competitive edge in pricing. I believe this is the reason why FCEV-passenger cars are the future.
There haven't been any affordable hydrogen vehicles (look at platinum prices).So unless you have some further knowledge on what this will cost?
Evanivitch said:
There haven't been any affordable hydrogen vehicles (look at platinum prices).
So unless you have some further knowledge on what this will cost?
"Nonsense, says Hirose: “Back when the first fuel cell vehicles supposedly cost a million dollars, we used 100 gram of Platinum in them. You can buy that for $3,000. Now we are using …” And he pauses. “Much, much less.” A back and forth ensues on how little Platinum goes into Toyota’s fuel cell stack, and finally, Hirose reveals that it is in the neighborhood of the platinum in a catalytic converter for diesel cars, which “uses around 10 grams of Platinum.”So unless you have some further knowledge on what this will cost?
Source:
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyo...
So, platinum is not an issue. Globally Mirai is already same price as middle tier Model 3. Price is going down fast because of mass production.
Batteries are not getting any cheaper:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/24/goldman-electric-c...
Edited by LasseV on Saturday 3rd April 10:27
Edited by LasseV on Saturday 3rd April 10:30
LasseV said:
Batteries are not getting any cheaper:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/24/goldman-electric-c...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/24/goldman-electric-c...
Edited by LasseV on Saturday 3rd April 10:27
Edited by LasseV on Saturday 3rd April 10:30
LFP isn't a new kind of battery, it's been widely used in China for years and is now in the Chinese-made, UK-sold Model 3. And it doesn't use Cobalt and drastically less nickel...Mirai priced from £66k. Not Model3 price...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/mirai#...
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