Hydrogen availability
Discussion
jjwilde said:
Can't wait for James May to update his ownership of one of these!
No fuel for March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October.
Will probably still not admit defeat. Ridiculous fuel for a car.
Seriously tho, what are Toyota (or whoever) saying?
I'm sure May isn't stupid and wouldn't only own a Hydrogen powered Car.No fuel for March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October.
Will probably still not admit defeat. Ridiculous fuel for a car.
Seriously tho, what are Toyota (or whoever) saying?
Ditto peeps who's only car is an EV.
rjg48 said:
I'm sure May isn't stupid and wouldn't only own a Hydrogen powered Car.
Ditto peeps who's only car is an EV.
We've managed almost 2 years and 25k miles with only EV's without any issues at all. What would we need an ICE car for when we charge at home and there are public chargers everywhere should we need them for longer trips?Ditto peeps who's only car is an EV.
Hydrogen a very different story obviously.
leef44 said:
Perhaps in countries with abundant resource of renewable hydrogen, that's where they can make it work but would appear that the UK is not a viable market.
But even in that situation, it makes much more sense to scale the hydrogen generation and storage to leverage economys of scale, ie to have a few, large hydrogen storage facilities (remember the surface are to volume ratio of a container gets better the bigger it is....) that absorb excess renewable 'lecy when there is surplus, and then act to boost the grid when renewables are in-sufficient. Why would you go to all the risk, cost, and complexity to do this at a consumer level? We currently don't run have refinery system onboard our cars and use crude oil, no we run them on petrol and diesel where the refining is done at scale for us, external to our individual cars, and the same is true for hydrogen as a load leveller / energy store.Max_Torque said:
leef44 said:
Perhaps in countries with abundant resource of renewable hydrogen, that's where they can make it work but would appear that the UK is not a viable market.
But even in that situation, it makes much more sense to scale the hydrogen generation and storage to leverage economys of scale, ie to have a few, large hydrogen storage facilities (remember the surface are to volume ratio of a container gets better the bigger it is....) that absorb excess renewable 'lecy when there is surplus, and then act to boost the grid when renewables are in-sufficient. Why would you go to all the risk, cost, and complexity to do this at a consumer level? We currently don't run have refinery system onboard our cars and use crude oil, no we run them on petrol and diesel where the refining is done at scale for us, external to our individual cars, and the same is true for hydrogen as a load leveller / energy store.
Max_Torque said:
leef44 said:
Perhaps in countries with abundant resource of renewable hydrogen, that's where they can make it work but would appear that the UK is not a viable market.
But even in that situation, it makes much more sense to scale the hydrogen generation and storage to leverage economys of scale, ie to have a few, large hydrogen storage facilities (remember the surface are to volume ratio of a container gets better the bigger it is....) that absorb excess renewable 'lecy when there is surplus, and then act to boost the grid when renewables are in-sufficient. Why would you go to all the risk, cost, and complexity to do this at a consumer level? We currently don't run have refinery system onboard our cars and use crude oil, no we run them on petrol and diesel where the refining is done at scale for us, external to our individual cars, and the same is true for hydrogen as a load leveller / energy store.https://www.powerengineeringint.com/smart-grid-td/...
SWoll said:
otolith said:
Current fuel cell cars are just as heavy as current BEVs, by the way - not sure where the idea the hydrogen tech is lightweight comes from?
Because hydrogen? 
I notice the usual edge cases are being thrown in as a justification for BEV's not being a suitable ICE replacement which is never helpful.
Camper vans and remote beaches.
Single vehicle couples who work different shifts and can't ever find a window to charge.
500 miles in a day with no time to stop.
Really?
I dont have an axe to grind either way (actually, EV's are better for my business) but I'm not blind enough to ignore the question of FCEVs
For H2 to become useable, some huge challenges would have to be overcome, the biggest I think would be distribution and storage but if that is developed for the only road transport that is really wants/needs high range & fast charge time then it is 'possible' that a car FCEV might become a contender but only if price competetive.
One question would be interesting to discuss. If the customer was presented with two car options at a similar price, both in purchase and energy.
Would they choose
an EV, range 200 miles, 45 minute charge to 80% at a fast charger, 100% over 8 hours at home
a FCEV range 400 miles but you have to go to a refuelling station, lets say 15 minutes (a guess for arguments sake).
The EV would meet most people's everyday needs, but I wonder would people still stick with the EV to be able to charge at home ? or choose the long range, fast fill option, or would they buy both ?
The hydrogen vis a vis electric. Assuming some sort of eventual price parity with hydrogen and petrol/diesel, which is quite the stretch!!!
If you’re giving people a hypothetical choice between an established and working hydrogen infrastructure, you need to be realistic about the fact it will be a lot more expensive mile for Mile than bev.
Surely you can’t deny that as well...
If you’re giving people a hypothetical choice between an established and working hydrogen infrastructure, you need to be realistic about the fact it will be a lot more expensive mile for Mile than bev.
Surely you can’t deny that as well...
Greg_D said:
The hydrogen vis a vis electric. Assuming some sort of eventual price parity with hydrogen and petrol/diesel, which is quite the stretch!!!
If you’re giving people a hypothetical choice between an established and working hydrogen infrastructure, you need to be realistic about the fact it will be a lot more expensive mile for Mile than bev.
Surely you can’t deny that as well...
Who ?If you’re giving people a hypothetical choice between an established and working hydrogen infrastructure, you need to be realistic about the fact it will be a lot more expensive mile for Mile than bev.
Surely you can’t deny that as well...
Anyway, logically the EV should be cheaper from an energy POV as its a more efficient use of the same resource at the basic level.
Gary C said:
On weight, I really meant, range for range. A 500 mile EV car would weight quite a bit
I dont have an axe to grind either way (actually, EV's are better for my business) but I'm not blind enough to ignore the question of FCEVs
For H2 to become useable, some huge challenges would have to be overcome, the biggest I think would be distribution and storage but if that is developed for the only road transport that is really wants/needs high range & fast charge time then it is 'possible' that a car FCEV might become a contender but only if price competetive.
One question would be interesting to discuss. If the customer was presented with two car options at a similar price, both in purchase and energy.
Would they choose
an EV, range 200 miles, 45 minute charge to 80% at a fast charger, 100% over 8 hours at home
a FCEV range 400 miles but you have to go to a refuelling station, lets say 15 minutes (a guess for arguments sake).
The EV would meet most people's everyday needs, but I wonder would people still stick with the EV to be able to charge at home ? or choose the long range, fast fill option, or would they buy both ?
I'd need two cars as we both work, where I've a second base in London and suppliers around the country. TCO for BEV and FCEV is projected to converge as early as 2030 anyway but BEV will have made its way into a wider variety of cars by then. We'd probably have a small BEV that's largely for my wife, a Honda E or Fiat 500, and a larger FCEV for me to cover my work, the driving holidays, practical things and leisure. I don't really see the issue with the occasional filling station and spending a few minutes at a pump. I also love the freedom of not worrying where I'm staying, whether it has an EV charger. When I get home from working away I don't really fancy having to plug the car in. I just want to be out of the car and into the house.I dont have an axe to grind either way (actually, EV's are better for my business) but I'm not blind enough to ignore the question of FCEVs
For H2 to become useable, some huge challenges would have to be overcome, the biggest I think would be distribution and storage but if that is developed for the only road transport that is really wants/needs high range & fast charge time then it is 'possible' that a car FCEV might become a contender but only if price competetive.
One question would be interesting to discuss. If the customer was presented with two car options at a similar price, both in purchase and energy.
Would they choose
an EV, range 200 miles, 45 minute charge to 80% at a fast charger, 100% over 8 hours at home
a FCEV range 400 miles but you have to go to a refuelling station, lets say 15 minutes (a guess for arguments sake).
The EV would meet most people's everyday needs, but I wonder would people still stick with the EV to be able to charge at home ? or choose the long range, fast fill option, or would they buy both ?
However I do like little cars and would love to have a small two seater that can carry me on my lonesome over the long distances.
Greg_D said:
The hydrogen vis a vis electric. Assuming some sort of eventual price parity with hydrogen and petrol/diesel, which is quite the stretch!!!
If you’re giving people a hypothetical choice between an established and working hydrogen infrastructure, you need to be realistic about the fact it will be a lot more expensive mile for Mile than bev.
Surely you can’t deny that as well...
TCOs for BEV and FCEV are projected to reach parity as early as 2030. I've posted reports that state that. If you've any details to support your thoughts that they won't then please share them.If you’re giving people a hypothetical choice between an established and working hydrogen infrastructure, you need to be realistic about the fact it will be a lot more expensive mile for Mile than bev.
Surely you can’t deny that as well...
Is there anything you won’t conflate...
I’m not on about a report that refers to tco. And how unbiased is ‘a report’ anyway? I just don’t see it personally, however...
I am talking about mile for mile direct comparison between bev and hfc given your assumption that Some mechanism arrives whereby they are refillable in the same way as a fuel car.
I don’t see hfc being even vaguely comparable on a cost basis for a heck of a long time, probably ever. There just isn’t a single thing that points to them being more efficient or cheaper in any way.... however much you squint
I’m not on about a report that refers to tco. And how unbiased is ‘a report’ anyway? I just don’t see it personally, however...
I am talking about mile for mile direct comparison between bev and hfc given your assumption that Some mechanism arrives whereby they are refillable in the same way as a fuel car.
I don’t see hfc being even vaguely comparable on a cost basis for a heck of a long time, probably ever. There just isn’t a single thing that points to them being more efficient or cheaper in any way.... however much you squint
Greg_D said:
Is there anything you won’t conflate...
I’m not on about a report that refers to tco. And how unbiased is ‘a report’ anyway? I just don’t see it personally, however...
I am talking about mile for mile direct comparison between bev and hfc given your assumption that Some mechanism arrives whereby they are refillable in the same way as a fuel car.
I don’t see hfc being even vaguely comparable on a cost basis for a heck of a long time, probably ever. There just isn’t a single thing that points to them being more efficient or cheaper in any way.... however much you squint
Here's a pwc report from Germany.I’m not on about a report that refers to tco. And how unbiased is ‘a report’ anyway? I just don’t see it personally, however...
I am talking about mile for mile direct comparison between bev and hfc given your assumption that Some mechanism arrives whereby they are refillable in the same way as a fuel car.
I don’t see hfc being even vaguely comparable on a cost basis for a heck of a long time, probably ever. There just isn’t a single thing that points to them being more efficient or cheaper in any way.... however much you squint
Check out the projected TCO (€ per 100km) for BEV and FCEV.
https://www.pwc.de/de/automobilindustrie/alternati...
They think differently to you, no squinting!
By all means please provide the detail behind your thoughts.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 22 October 21:13
Interesting, especially from a historical perspective (it's a 2017 publication).
Is this the bit you're thinking of for TCO?
Seems a bit Germany-specific in some of the taxation assumptions.
There's a more recent one here from Deloitte and fuel cell manufacturer Ballard which reads more like a sales brochure than an analysis.
https://www.ballard.com/about-ballard/newsroom/new...
Is this the bit you're thinking of for TCO?
Seems a bit Germany-specific in some of the taxation assumptions.
There's a more recent one here from Deloitte and fuel cell manufacturer Ballard which reads more like a sales brochure than an analysis.
https://www.ballard.com/about-ballard/newsroom/new...
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