Hydrogen availability
Discussion
Interesting opinion piece on Hyundai's website.
https://tech.hyundaimotorgroup.com/article/the-fut...
https://tech.hyundaimotorgroup.com/article/the-fut...
On the infrastructure and distribution issue, it did look as if the plans for replacing natural gas with hydrogen would solve much of the difficulty in the long term.
However, from a brief bit of googling, it appears that fuel cells need very high purity hydrogen otherwise performance degrades quickly. (Which explains why the present fuelling stations are supplied by package electrolysis and compression systems rather than using commercial hydrogen in tube trailers or cylinder packs).
So the supply will have to stay with local production for each fuelling station which will be very expensive and complicated. Each facility would have to be pretty substantial if the supply is to mimic the numbers served by petrol/diesel stations. The power loads would be huge.
However, from a brief bit of googling, it appears that fuel cells need very high purity hydrogen otherwise performance degrades quickly. (Which explains why the present fuelling stations are supplied by package electrolysis and compression systems rather than using commercial hydrogen in tube trailers or cylinder packs).
So the supply will have to stay with local production for each fuelling station which will be very expensive and complicated. Each facility would have to be pretty substantial if the supply is to mimic the numbers served by petrol/diesel stations. The power loads would be huge.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes, likely! It's what's been done for BEV at the expense of ICE. It's what's probably kept Tesla alive. It's what happens, tinkering to steer in the direction the governments want.My point about China's credit shift. The same.
Sometimes the cold, hard figures, that suggest something shouldn't be viable, are ignored or offset to suit the endgame or until the figures actually start to stack up.
I find the attitude of 'it won't work' (because that seems logical at the time) is futile when you look around and see the weight of governments around the world pushing in a certain direction.
We want freedom from fossil fuels, from the people that pedal them and from the fear of causing conflict when we're competing for them. I'm not convinced we're even really going down this path for environmental reasons.
Water is everywhere. There's too much of it to fight over. You can't monopolise it.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Just as an aside, because water isn't a limiting resource for hydrogen production, energy is, but water is a major source of international conflict;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict
There are disputes in the availability of the volumes of fresh water needed for agriculture and domestic use, which could lead to war. The quantities of water needed for hydrogen manufacture are a drop in the ocean. A full tank on a Mirai needs 45 litres of water to be split. A person in the UK consumes on average about 140 litres of water a day.
There are definitely geopolitical reasons for reducing dependency on oil and gas, but the availability of water is really a non-issue, it's the alternative energy generation which is key.
There are definitely geopolitical reasons for reducing dependency on oil and gas, but the availability of water is really a non-issue, it's the alternative energy generation which is key.
Mikehig said:
However, from a brief bit of googling, it appears that fuel cells need very high purity hydrogen otherwise performance degrades quickly. (Which explains why the present fuelling stations are supplied by package electrolysis and compression systems rather than using commercial hydrogen in tube trailers or cylinder packs).
So the supply will have to stay with local production for each fuelling station which will be very expensive and complicated. Each facility would have to be pretty substantial if the supply is to mimic the numbers served by petrol/diesel stations. The power loads would be huge.
Thats exactly how we get our hydrogen delivered at work, and its pure. We use it to cool the 660MW generators so it needs to be dry and pure.So the supply will have to stay with local production for each fuelling station which will be very expensive and complicated. Each facility would have to be pretty substantial if the supply is to mimic the numbers served by petrol/diesel stations. The power loads would be huge.
But they do come in bottle packs rather than tanker which limits the amount delivered in one go.
I would have thought hydrogen would have to be delivered in chemical combination with something else or by adsorption/absorption for separation either at a filling station or in the vehicle itself.
Gary C said:
Mikehig said:
However, from a brief bit of googling, it appears that fuel cells need very high purity hydrogen otherwise performance degrades quickly. (Which explains why the present fuelling stations are supplied by package electrolysis and compression systems rather than using commercial hydrogen in tube trailers or cylinder packs).
So the supply will have to stay with local production for each fuelling station which will be very expensive and complicated. Each facility would have to be pretty substantial if the supply is to mimic the numbers served by petrol/diesel stations. The power loads would be huge.
Thats exactly how we get our hydrogen delivered at work, and its pure. We use it to cool the 660MW generators so it needs to be dry and pure.So the supply will have to stay with local production for each fuelling station which will be very expensive and complicated. Each facility would have to be pretty substantial if the supply is to mimic the numbers served by petrol/diesel stations. The power loads would be huge.
But they do come in bottle packs rather than tanker which limits the amount delivered in one go.
I would have thought hydrogen would have to be delivered in chemical combination with something else or by adsorption/absorption for separation either at a filling station or in the vehicle itself.
Gary C: "I would have thought hydrogen would have to be delivered in chemical combination with something else or by adsorption/absorption for separation either at a filling station or in the vehicle itself."
That's the holy grail that a number of companies are pursuing for the H2 tanks on FCVs. Voight K linked to one that is promising dramatically better storage density and lower costs and I have read of others.
The litmus test will be when the industrial gas companies start to use these new mediums instead of the classic tube trailers and cylinders If the predictions are proven, they will be the first in the queue as the projected improvements would be of huge benefit to a key part of their business.
It has to be said that these advances have been in the works for a good while; some use metallic compounds, others use molecular seive-type materials. We will have to wait and see.
That's the holy grail that a number of companies are pursuing for the H2 tanks on FCVs. Voight K linked to one that is promising dramatically better storage density and lower costs and I have read of others.
The litmus test will be when the industrial gas companies start to use these new mediums instead of the classic tube trailers and cylinders If the predictions are proven, they will be the first in the queue as the projected improvements would be of huge benefit to a key part of their business.
It has to be said that these advances have been in the works for a good while; some use metallic compounds, others use molecular seive-type materials. We will have to wait and see.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Article says: "Unfortunately there is no demand for 100,000 of any FCEV per year.
That’s because nowhere in the world can you find a sufficient hydrogen fuelling infrastructure for consumers to bet on such a car.
But it’s different in the world of commercial vehicles and buses.
Hyundai has signed an agreement with H2 Energy of Switzerland to supply 1000 of a new FCEV truck, to be used by a variety of Swiss operators.
Trucks have planned routes, and often return to a regular depot where a hydrogen pump can be installed.
It’s a similar story with buses, which is why many cities are already using FCEV buses.
For a truck, the potential advantages of FCEV over BEV are clear.
The stack and tanks together weigh much less than a battery, so the payload is correspondingly greater."
And later on:
"Fuel-cell propulsion might be better for commercial and fleet vehicles, BEV for private cars."
What's that I hear VK, are you now suggesting a hydrogen infrastructure specifically for the use of commercial vehicles only...
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