Hydrogen availability
Discussion
Gary C said:
ruggedscotty said:
we can still make internal combustion engines run on hydrogen,
battery has this so beaten before its even out the pen.
Except you wouldn't use an IC with hydrogen.battery has this so beaten before its even out the pen.
If the source is from steam methane reformer then you are making it from natural gas. You might as well just have an LPG fuel source.
JonnyVTEC said:
anonymous said:
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Your hydrogen car also needs that battery... and the metals sourcing is the problem for a fuel cell.
Trucks as the material cost can be absorbed in the lorry and keeping the vehicle going has far more a pressing concern when you are paying someone to drive to it and its only earning when its moving.
Have you considered you don't know enough about the subject to argue either side of it?
Edited by JonnyVTEC on Monday 19th October 09:30
One could argue that lithium is the peak battery metal, whereas the materials in fuel cells are still being refined and developed.
What's the battery size or volume comparison between the battery in a Hydrogen fuel cell car and a li-ion battery EV? Are we talking apples with apples?
What's the energy density comparison between hydrogen and a lithium battery?
Battery EVs are not the everyman solution yet because they don't suit the way many people live. The need to connect them to your house overnight rules them out for many, many people, for very obvious reasons. Without a massive infrastructure change I can see EVs being socially divisive because they demand compromise that many haven't the option to make. That's where I believe hydrogen could come into its own.
Evanivitch said:
anonymous said:
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Why would you need to connect a 150-300 mile BEV to a charger every night?And by overnight I mean somewhere where the car can be left safe for hours while the owner goes about their life.
Does anybody on here run a pure EV without access to an off-street charging point that they own or use at their office? I'd be interested to know who makes that work.
anonymous said:
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All dependent on mileage. Despite being able to charge at home we used to take advantage of the 50kW rapid charger at our local supermarket once a week for an hour whilst shopping and having a coffee as it was free and would add 150-200 miles of range, which would be enough for a lot of people I'd suggest?Awkward if you can't charge at home but not impossible.
anonymous said:
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We've been pure EV for almost 2 years now and cover upwards of 15k per year.As above if your weekly mileage is <200 miles then doable in most EV's with a weekly charge on a 50kW rapid for an hour.
With the massive potential saving in BIK and fuel for large numbers of drivers that may well be a (possible) inconvenience worth considering? You're talking £100's per month in some scenarios.
Nobody has claimed that ideal EV charging infrastructure is in place. If you applied the same warped logic to hydrogen you'd dismiss it out of hand now because there currently isn't any infrastructure.
Given we regularly dig up residential streets to install fibre broadband, renew a gas main, etc, etc, it hardly seems a big stretch to gradually install charging points in residential streets where they're needed. We already run power to street lights, parking metres, Belisha beacons in those streets and to all the houses along those streets. Why is some extra demand overnight and a bit more street furniture considered a big hurdle?
Given we regularly dig up residential streets to install fibre broadband, renew a gas main, etc, etc, it hardly seems a big stretch to gradually install charging points in residential streets where they're needed. We already run power to street lights, parking metres, Belisha beacons in those streets and to all the houses along those streets. Why is some extra demand overnight and a bit more street furniture considered a big hurdle?
SWoll said:
anonymous said:
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We've been pure EV for almost 2 years now and cover upwards of 15k per year.As above if your weekly mileage is <200 miles then doable in most EV's with a weekly charge on a 50kW rapid for an hour.
With the massive potential saving in BIK and fuel for large numbers of drivers that may well be a (possible) inconvenience worth considering? You're talking £100's per month in some scenarios.
You'd not have to plan it to coincide with a supermarket trip and you'd probably have more chance of knowing a pump would be available whenever you rocked up.
So hydrogen has that same practical quality as ICE does, but one that perhaps a pure plugin battery EV doesn't.
anonymous said:
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But on the flip side, the majority of EV users will leave home with a "full tank" from home charging.And the others will be able to use the current and growing availability of rapid chargers at supermarkets, gyms, hubs etc to charge whilst they are elsewhere. As opposed to specific journey to a fuel pump in limited locations and the time to fill and pay.
anonymous said:
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Totally agree on ICE v EV and if I didn't have the option to charge at home I'd have a difficult decision to make, although those cost savings for company car drivers could be well worth the trouble.Hydrogen brings a large number of other challenges of course but put simply if they installed pumps at all current petrol stations it would obviously be more convenient than EV for those that can't charge at home or do regular long distance trips.
EV is actually more convenient than ICE or Hydrogen woud be 99.99% of the time for us as we just plugin over night a couple of times a week and never have to worry about queuing or standing in the cold at a petrol station ever again.
ATG said:
Nobody has claimed that ideal EV charging infrastructure is in place. If you applied the same warped logic to hydrogen you'd dismiss it out of hand now because there currently isn't any infrastructure.
Given we regularly dig up residential streets to install fibre broadband, renew a gas main, etc, etc, it hardly seems a big stretch to gradually install charging points in residential streets where they're needed. We already run power to street lights, parking metres, Belisha beacons in those streets and to all the houses along those streets. Why is some extra demand overnight and a bit more street furniture considered a big hurdle?
I didn't say anybody had claimed the infrastructure was already in place. They'd be foolish to make such a claim.Given we regularly dig up residential streets to install fibre broadband, renew a gas main, etc, etc, it hardly seems a big stretch to gradually install charging points in residential streets where they're needed. We already run power to street lights, parking metres, Belisha beacons in those streets and to all the houses along those streets. Why is some extra demand overnight and a bit more street furniture considered a big hurdle?
Have we a cost-effective way of delivering this on-street ad-hoc charging yet?
Have you any ideas on how many charging points would be needed and what the timescale would be to gradually introduce these?
But my point is hydrogen cars wouldn't require this particular infrastructure. While neither mode is fully developed yet it'd be silly to write either off. The 'race' is still in progress.
Other than that, what i often find missing in these discussions are the practical and social implications. They cannot be overlooked.
Evanivitch said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
But on the flip side, the majority of EV users will leave home with a "full tank" from home charging.And the others will be able to use the current and growing availability of rapid chargers at supermarkets, gyms, hubs etc to charge whilst they are elsewhere. As opposed to specific journey to a fuel pump in limited locations and the time to fill and pay.
Mikehig said:
Seriously, hydrogen is tricky - as you clearly know. Norway has shut its hydrogen filling stations (4, I think) following an explosion.
And it's surprising what will burn in pure oxygen, especially if there's a bit of heat/pressure.
Yep. Used to have a beautiful set of 'spark free' tools at work. Its a bugger to keep it where its meant to be, molecule is so small some of it slips between the atoms of the enclosing materials and under seals so everything must be done to ventilate and keep it from building up.And it's surprising what will burn in pure oxygen, especially if there's a bit of heat/pressure.
On oxygen, keeping oil out is incredibly important. All fittings and equipment have to be oil free and cleaned before fitting as the oil can combust in O2 under pressure with no other ignition source required. We even have to pressurise some pipework with CO2 before opening up the O2 valves because of the risk of frictional heating due to high velocity as valves are cracked open can cause combustion of the steel valves.
Not sure which is worse to be honest, O2 or H2
I know the company did look at setting up commercial scale hydrogen production in the last few years but nothing came of it.
If we could safely store and distribute H2, it would offer advantages over pure EV such as no large battery, quick refilling, no CO2 production (if produced by clean methods). However, can only think we would have to do it in a form that could be stored in combination and catalysed at the point of use and that might undo its main advantage.
Any chemists about ?
anonymous said:
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It's the same reason why gas turbines never made it into cars, despite many people trying. Some technologies come with significant burdens of packaging, safety, complexity, maintenance, design life, etc. to access their benefits. Hydrogen is one of them. Attempting to downsize these technologies and infrastructure is incredibly costly and challenging. If there is no alternative then all well and good, but given that EV is here to stay and has investment of many orders of magnitude greater than hydrogen (for passenger cars), it really isn't that difficult to read the writing on the wall.
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