Hydrogen availability
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
leef44 said:
It will depend on how good the tax incentives/ government subsidies/grants will be.
it will depend on the buisness case. The problem with tax incentives & subsidies is that these are market place specifc and the OEs are pretty much global now. So a specific tax incentive in say the UK is unlilkely to swing an entire global platform into a viable business case on a world wide basis.For freight transport industry, is this the same i.e. only global or would there be regional variation so opportunities to be influenced by regional tax/grant incentives?
In your defence though, you’ve only been a PH member for a week! Assuming you aren’t returning under a new login...
In summary the OP has a Nexo but hasn’t been able to buy any hydrogen for 6 months, so he has a very expensive driveway ornament.
There is a possibility that the OP is James May, which he hasn’t confirmed or denied, although he has been absent from the thread for a while now, probably after it went all Pete Tong.
In summary the OP has a Nexo but hasn’t been able to buy any hydrogen for 6 months, so he has a very expensive driveway ornament.
There is a possibility that the OP is James May, which he hasn’t confirmed or denied, although he has been absent from the thread for a while now, probably after it went all Pete Tong.
Gary C said:
ruggedscotty said:
we can still make internal combustion engines run on hydrogen,
battery has this so beaten before its even out the pen.
Except you wouldn't use an IC with hydrogen.battery has this so beaten before its even out the pen.
BMW did - could use a small gas turbine to spin a generator to charge a battery
leef44 said:
Max_Torque said:
leef44 said:
It will depend on how good the tax incentives/ government subsidies/grants will be.
it will depend on the buisness case. The problem with tax incentives & subsidies is that these are market place specifc and the OEs are pretty much global now. So a specific tax incentive in say the UK is unlilkely to swing an entire global platform into a viable business case on a world wide basis.For freight transport industry, is this the same i.e. only global or would there be regional variation so opportunities to be influenced by regional tax/grant incentives?
GT119 said:
In your defence though, you’ve only been a PH member for a week! Assuming you aren’t returning under a new login...
In summary the OP has a Nexo but hasn’t been able to buy any hydrogen for 6 months, so he has a very expensive driveway ornament.
There is a possibility that the OP is James May, which he hasn’t confirmed or denied, although he has been absent from the thread for a while now, probably after it went all Pete Tong.
I'm confused - I skimmed through as I have an interest in hydrogen and BEV, undecided on which way it'll go, but not convinced it'll be 100% BEV.In summary the OP has a Nexo but hasn’t been able to buy any hydrogen for 6 months, so he has a very expensive driveway ornament.
There is a possibility that the OP is James May, which he hasn’t confirmed or denied, although he has been absent from the thread for a while now, probably after it went all Pete Tong.
However, I was replying to someone saying that no OE would make one (an FCEV, I assume)? I must have misunderstood somewhere.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not if there are no actual products to buy because the OE doesn't make them because the business case is non-viable!This is the point. Today, other than a tiny number of ultra niche, ultra low volume HFC passcars, you can't buy them, and as all the major OE's are now only pushing EV's, that isn't going to change.
ie Pop out to Currys and try to buy a steam powered toaster and see how you get on...........
GT119 said:
What fuel are they using for the power plants? If there are modern generating assets that can produce GWs of electrical power and the existing owner can't use them, do you not think it will make commercial sense to redeploy these? Either directly or through change of ownership? Especially if they are fuelled from natural gas.
It would be good if redeployment were viable but it's doubtful. Closure or curtailment of refinery operations will cut or reduce the fuel supply and the economics would be undermined. Exporting power to the grid is an attractive idea to make use of idle capacity but these plants generate at medium voltages as all of the consumers are local so major investment in new transformers would be needed to enable export.VK: "With regards hydrogen transportation-
What's good about hydrogen transportation is that there isn't one single method of getting it from the generation source to the filling point. It can be taken via tube trailer. That could be transported by rail or road to the filling point. It could be generated at the filling point. It could be piped. We already produce hydrogen for industrial use elsewhere, such as in the petroleum refinement process, in food production, for example. It's not as if we're not moving the stuff already and this will bring in economies of scale as it's scaled up."
All quite true; there's a lot of infrastructure that has been in place for decades. However that is all handling hydrogen made from natural gas via steam reforming. Making hydrogen that way for fuel cells to turn into electricity produces much more CO2 than just burning the gas to make electricity for BEVs (I think this has already been pointed out a few times).
To make the hydrogen zero-carbon will require a colossal investment in electrolysers and a dedicated distribution system which will be horrendously expensive, making FCEVs even more costly vs BEVs.
What's good about hydrogen transportation is that there isn't one single method of getting it from the generation source to the filling point. It can be taken via tube trailer. That could be transported by rail or road to the filling point. It could be generated at the filling point. It could be piped. We already produce hydrogen for industrial use elsewhere, such as in the petroleum refinement process, in food production, for example. It's not as if we're not moving the stuff already and this will bring in economies of scale as it's scaled up."
All quite true; there's a lot of infrastructure that has been in place for decades. However that is all handling hydrogen made from natural gas via steam reforming. Making hydrogen that way for fuel cells to turn into electricity produces much more CO2 than just burning the gas to make electricity for BEVs (I think this has already been pointed out a few times).
To make the hydrogen zero-carbon will require a colossal investment in electrolysers and a dedicated distribution system which will be horrendously expensive, making FCEVs even more costly vs BEVs.
As you know, my comment was about the transportation. We know the production will need to be water based to be green.
Why would the dedicated transport system have to be horrendously expensive? We shift the stuff around already.
What's your thoughts on the costs of the millions of BEV charging points that would be needed if we went total BEV?
Because a lot of money will need to be spent no matter what.
And what are your thoughts on Kubas binding?
Why would the dedicated transport system have to be horrendously expensive? We shift the stuff around already.
What's your thoughts on the costs of the millions of BEV charging points that would be needed if we went total BEV?
Because a lot of money will need to be spent no matter what.
And what are your thoughts on Kubas binding?
Landcrab_Six said:
GT119 said:
In your defence though, you’ve only been a PH member for a week! Assuming you aren’t returning under a new login...
In summary the OP has a Nexo but hasn’t been able to buy any hydrogen for 6 months, so he has a very expensive driveway ornament.
There is a possibility that the OP is James May, which he hasn’t confirmed or denied, although he has been absent from the thread for a while now, probably after it went all Pete Tong.
I'm confused - I skimmed through as I have an interest in hydrogen and BEV, undecided on which way it'll go, but not convinced it'll be 100% BEV.In summary the OP has a Nexo but hasn’t been able to buy any hydrogen for 6 months, so he has a very expensive driveway ornament.
There is a possibility that the OP is James May, which he hasn’t confirmed or denied, although he has been absent from the thread for a while now, probably after it went all Pete Tong.
However, I was replying to someone saying that no OE would make one (an FCEV, I assume)? I must have misunderstood somewhere.
This comment came up on another thread:
"even if you do have to wait for a charge on a long journey, if you add up all the time you don't spend going to get fuel over the normal course of your ownership you more than make up for it. Waking up every morning to a "full tank" is a great thing."
This applies to FCEVs as well, especially as fuelling points will few and far between, unlike petrol stations..
"even if you do have to wait for a charge on a long journey, if you add up all the time you don't spend going to get fuel over the normal course of your ownership you more than make up for it. Waking up every morning to a "full tank" is a great thing."
This applies to FCEVs as well, especially as fuelling points will few and far between, unlike petrol stations..
Edited by Mikehig on Friday 30th October 22:19
Mikehig said:
This comment came up on another thread:
"even if you do have to wait for a charge on a long journey, if you add up all the time you don't spend going to get fuel over the normal course of your ownership you more than make up for it. Waking up every morning to a "full tank" is a great thing."
This applies to FCEVs as well.
I must have done a thousand miles this week, traveling at all hours, in the city, in the countryside, on the motorway. I've popped fuel in three times. The beauty of ICE, and so too with FCEV, is the ability to wake up every morning with whatever happens to be in the tank knowing that a five minute stop down the road and you could go another 400 miles if you wished. No need to plug anything in overnight."even if you do have to wait for a charge on a long journey, if you add up all the time you don't spend going to get fuel over the normal course of your ownership you more than make up for it. Waking up every morning to a "full tank" is a great thing."
This applies to FCEVs as well.
No scratting about in the dark, cold and wet with a cable and plug. Just park up, get out, go in the house.
I accept it's horses for courses but I really don't see the attraction of plug and cable or the problem with a hose and nozzle!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's all because it's cheap. Favourable taxation is driving behaviour - most people evangelising BEV do it because it costs tuppence h'penny to charge on Economy 7.You should see the twitter s
t-storm if a rapid charger is roughly equivalent in cost to ICE.Unleaded was driven by the government, diesel was driven by taxation and the government, the move back to petrol is driven by the government - and at the moment, BEV is driven by the government.
When will policy switch to taxing the hell out of a BEV? With the debts we've run up this year, it may be sooner than we think.
How many would accept the BEV compromise if they were cost equivalent to ICE?
ICE, BEV and H2 all pay the mortgage for me, so I don't really care where we go - but I am puzzled by the number of people who can't see beyond BEV.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Just plugged ours in. Two steps out of the side door, press button, plug in, two steps back inside. The entire process took about 15 seconds and tomorrow morning I'll have 250+ miles of range, won't have to visit a petrol station to find pay at pump is playing up so I need to find a mask so I can queue in the shop, and won't have to hand over £40 for the privilege. If you can't see the appeal in that then not a lot more to be said. You seem to forget we've all run ICE cars previously for years so are well aware of the differences in the experience.
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