Hydrogen availability

[otolith]

anonymous said:

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[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Where's the cost?

[otolith]

Look at the efficiency. Per mile travelled it uses more than three times as much energy.

[Mikehig]

Gary C: "Not sure which is worse to be honest, O2 or H2 "

At least those who handle oxygen are familiar with the requirements. The challenge with hydrogen will be the "public interface" of large numbers of users where folk could be caught in an incident with no awareness, training or equipment. Most people have at least some idea of the risks of gas, electricity, petrol, etc but hydrogen will be a new ball game - the invisible flame, for example.

[Gary C]

Mikehig said:

Gary C: "Not sure which is worse to be honest, O2 or H2 "

At least those who handle oxygen are familiar with the requirements. The challenge with hydrogen will be the "public interface" of large numbers of users where folk could be caught in an incident with no awareness, training or equipment. Most people have at least some idea of the risks of gas, electricity, petrol, etc but hydrogen will be a new ball game - the invisible flame, for example.

True, but if hydrogen is combined with something else then released at the point of work then it could be almost as simple as using petrol (hydrogens LEL is not too dissimilar to petrol vapour)

Essentially an engineering problem.

Here is a fun game to pass your time

Fill a bin liner with hydrogen

Set light to it

st yourself

Boy does it make a bang.

[Polite M135 driver]

Try again with stoichiometric o2 added, or do a mix of o2/acetylene. Use a match at the end of a very long stick.

[Rob-s5mok]

Sorry to interrupt the very interesting conversation but any chance the OP could update on his discussions? I might need a hydrogen filling station in the South East that actually has some, for a project in a couple of weeks. Thanks

[JonnyVTEC]

anonymous said:

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Electricity isn't free.

Similar to a bar of soap and everytime you handle it you lose a bit,

[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

Look at the efficiency. Per mile travelled it uses more than three times as much energy.

You mentioned cost to the consumer being 3 times the other. Your chart doesn't mention cost.
Jim bought a litre bottle of the finest whiskey.
He bought a litre bottle of supermarket water.
He poured half the water down the drain.
He put the bottles on the table.
Oh, look, the process of delivering whiskey to the table was most efficient.
But that doesn't tell you anything about how much it cost Jim to obtain the whiskey and the water in the first place.
Even discounting costs I'd bet the comparison chart doesn't take into account things like the weight of the car and the work done (and energy used) just to shift the car's bulk, where we know battery tech is very heavy in comparison. Hydrogen cars are candidates for efficiency through energy density and weight saving, whereas purely plugin battery EVs are heavy buggers.

[gangzoom]

anonymous said:

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You seem to have forgotten the amount of equipment needed to store one of the most reactive elements in the universe at 5000PSI - not to mention the cost/complexity of equipment needed to compress any fuel to those kind of pressures for either storage or transportation.

Look up weight of hydrogen fuel cells cars before dissing EVs for been overweight.

If you recon a 800kg hydrogen powered Elise is coming, you will be waiting for long time yet.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 20th October 08:59

[otolith]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If I had meant to write "costs three times as much money to run it", I'd have written that. I don't know how much more it will cost to generate, transport, store, dispense and retail hydrogen compared to transmitting electricity. I do know that we will need three times as much primary energy, though.

[jjwilde]

anonymous said:

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Absolute clueless cringe.

[Greg_D]

Just to wade into the infrastructure element of ev charging.
I build apartments and it has been standard For some time that every new unit we produce gets a charger in one of their designated parking spaces.
The whole infrastructure issue will simply melt away over time. Add in outlets retrofitted to street furniture and I don’t see any significant barriers to mass charging of EVs in the medium term.

Hydrogen in the other hand....

[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

{rich enough to pay 3x the rate for fuel .

That's what you wrote.

[anonymous-user]

gangzoom said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You seem to have forgotten the amount of equipment needed to store one of the most reactive elements in the universe at 5000PSI - not to mention the cost/complexity of equipment needed to compress any fuel to those kind of pressures for either storage or transportation.

Look up weight of hydrogen fuel cells cars before dissing EVs for been overweight.

If you recon a 800kg hydrogen powered Elise is coming, you will be waiting for long time yet.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 20th October 08:59

You mentioned the 800kg Lotus. I didn't. Hydrogen has more of a chance than BEV though.

It will be so that hydrogen cell cars will overtake BEVs when it comes to weight and range. Fuel cell technology is very scalable, whereas with BEV a small, lighter car cannot go as far.
So a 400 mile range hydrogen car, drive non-stop all that way, five minute fill-up, then drive another 400 miles non-stop. That's never going to be possible for BEVs.

With hydrogen we could produce it locally. Lithium not so.
Think of the international shipping costs of the lithium needed for BEVs. Think of the mining that needs to be done. Think of where the lithium is and who we'd have to deal with. Geopolitically hydrogen has the edge.

[anonymous-user]

jjwilde said:

Absolute clueless cringe.

That kinda sums up what you've got to say.
You're like a little BEV and Tesla propaganda machine! I just can't take you seriously.

[GT119]

Anyone got any more crayons, I’m all out.

[anonymous-user]

Greg_D said:

Just to wade into the infrastructure element of ev charging.
I build apartments and it has been standard For some time that every new unit we produce gets a charger in one of their designated parking spaces.
The whole infrastructure issue will simply melt away over time. Add in outlets retrofitted to street furniture and I don’t see any significant barriers to mass charging of EVs in the medium term.

Hydrogen in the other hand....

No offence intended but your opinion beyond new build apartments isn't really worth any more than anyone elses.
Out of interest, what charger do you supply and what type of apartments do you build?
However if you have detail on the strategy and implications for the implementation of streetside charging it would be welcome!

[anonymous-user]

GT119 said:

Anyone got any more crayons, I’m all out.

You wrote that hydrogen turbines didn't make it into cars and hydrogen fuel cell cars won't work for the same reason.
No wonder you're out of crayons if that's the kind of thing you've been writing with them!

[Evanivitch]

anonymous said:

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Could we? How much extra electricity would we need? Can we produce that domestically without relying on imported products?

anonymous said:

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There are lithium resources in the UK, including sea water. If and when they become economical is a different matter.

anonymous said:

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1.5kg of Lithium Carbonate raw product per kWh battery. You don't need to be good at maths to know that's a lot less than importing the fuel needed for a ICE or to supplement a hydrogen economy.