Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
NGK210 said:
Fewer sweeping statements, more facts/evidence please.
If you start a page 1 on this thread you'll probably find a few. Any of gt9s posts for a start.I'd wager that right now your car, regardless of whether you live in a flat or castle is 10m or less away from a power cable of some description. Getting provision to charge from that, while not necessarily easy in every circumstance is much more viable than using a fuel which isn't yet produced in any quantity (specifically green H2), is a woefully inefficient use of electricity to make and a right pain to transport.
So no, I don't think it's a massively controversial statement to make and I'm not sure it requires 'evidence' to back it up. It's quite obvious.
As above.
They have stuck a load of EV charging points in around here wired off the street lamps, which was presumably over speced, and obviously now running LED rather than sodium. I believe in a reasonable amount of places the street lights are straight off the cables feeding the houses.
Most workplaces now have some EV charging, and its not beyond the whit if man to role that out to carparks.
At this point nobody knows exactly what awidespread hydrogen distribution and filling network would look like if it had mass adoption, and we likely never will, but certainly it's got a good number of challenges, as highlighted by previous posts.
They have stuck a load of EV charging points in around here wired off the street lamps, which was presumably over speced, and obviously now running LED rather than sodium. I believe in a reasonable amount of places the street lights are straight off the cables feeding the houses.
Most workplaces now have some EV charging, and its not beyond the whit if man to role that out to carparks.
At this point nobody knows exactly what awidespread hydrogen distribution and filling network would look like if it had mass adoption, and we likely never will, but certainly it's got a good number of challenges, as highlighted by previous posts.
dhutch said:
At this point nobody knows exactly what awidespread hydrogen distribution and filling network would look like if it had mass adoption, and we likely never will, but certainly it's got a good number of challenges, as highlighted by previous posts.
Further to that, have a look where your local LPG filling station is. Much easier solution than H2 both in terms of the car end and the filling network, and having been bumbling around since the 70s, good little peek 20 years ago when there was a lot of government subsidies, it's now petering out again and filling stations in the UK atleast are closing left right and centre leaving just a few legacy providers at higher filling costs that make the whole thing almost unsustainable. NGK210 said:
Merry said:
NGK210 said:
And for anyone burdened with living in a 2nd-floor or higher apartment, in cities such as lil’ ol’ Edinburgh or London, a 13A socket will suffice?
Not everyone lives in a suburban semi-detached.
Fixing that problem involves a significantly smaller leap of imagination than making green hydrogen and it's supporting infrastructure viable... Not everyone lives in a suburban semi-detached.
The grid already exists and has capacity. Evidence is from the national grids own statements/reports.
You honestly question if that's easier than an entirely new Hydrogen infrastructure?
Edited by 98elise on Tuesday 14th March 12:49
98elise said:
NGK210 said:
Merry said:
NGK210 said:
And for anyone burdened with living in a 2nd-floor or higher apartment, in cities such as lil’ ol’ Edinburgh or London, a 13A socket will suffice?
Not everyone lives in a suburban semi-detached.
Fixing that problem involves a significantly smaller leap of imagination than making green hydrogen and it's supporting infrastructure viable... Not everyone lives in a suburban semi-detached.
The grid already exists and has capacity. Evidence is from the national grids own statements/reports.
You honestly question if that's easier than an entirely new Hydrogen infrastructure?
We need to realise this, we need to be sure that we can support a network investment. Hydrogen would be from the ground up.
source of hydrogen - its needs to be green so steam reformation is out. water and electricity. so we need copious amounts of electricity. and a plentiful supply of water. we dont even know how that would affect the planet, if we siphoned off water broke it to oxygen and hydrogen. how would that affect out water supplies bearing in mind there are areas of the world in drought.
use hydrogen, liek JCB we could burn it... However... and this is the thing hydrogen when burned is no where near as good at liberating energy. and unless its burned in 100% oxygen it creates issues....many reports state the interest in hydrogen peaked before the recent advances in battery power for burning. using it to power engines.
most if not all car manufacturers have pulled away from hydrogen simply as it can not do what they need it to do. And as for getting green hydrogen the amount of electricity from water to tank is colossal compared to what that electricity could do if used to charge a battery.
we are not going to see hydrogen in cars, even for fuelcell applications. all the car companies and fuel suppliers are looking but no one is moving as they dont see any move to hydrogen being profitable. the cost of hydrogen per unit kW/h storage when compared to a battery... there is no comparison. or even parity. its too costly. there must be some reason to require hydrogen that would make it attractive like a massive range. however battery has that covered, even now.
the time that we could have gone towards hydrogen is gone. battery is sat there and the technological improvements with battery happening right now... its moving people away from hydrogen.
the simple answer is.....
to make enough hydrogen to enable 100 miles travel requires significantly more electricity and process as what it takes to use that electricity to charge a battery to do that 100 miles. And they are even talking about batteries that will cover 1000 miles between charge. and weigh a lot less than current batteries.
no wonder no one is really chasing hydrogen other than the grant seekers. watched a program on the hydrogen town... absolute madness. I pity those that live there....
dhutch said:
As above.
They have stuck a load of EV charging points in around here wired off the street lamps, which was presumably over speced, and obviously now running LED rather than sodium. I believe in a reasonable amount of places the street lights are straight off the cables feeding the houses.
They have stuck a load of EV charging points in around here wired off the street lamps, which was presumably over speced, and obviously now running LED rather than sodium. I believe in a reasonable amount of places the street lights are straight off the cables feeding the houses.
Took the EV Antwerp - London - Antwerp without stopping extra for a charge. Superchargers at the Euroshuttle in Calais, just street lamps in London. Quite clever, had a QR code to pay on and worked a charm. Not the fastest charge but good enough if you're there for the day or the night.
As said, some people don't seem to grasp how easy some of the infrastructure "problems" BEV's cause are to solve, especially compared to -for example- hydrogen.
rscott said:
I'd assume something in the connector negotiates the pressure (either an electronic or mechanical interface).
Still don't know where all the green hydrogen will come from for this though - the IEA were very clear about the potential production volumes and it's nowhere near enough to cope with heavy goods usage, let alone cars..
Brown coal. Same as always. It has to be made near where it will be used so for much of Europe that means a lignite source. Still don't know where all the green hydrogen will come from for this though - the IEA were very clear about the potential production volumes and it's nowhere near enough to cope with heavy goods usage, let alone cars..
DonkeyApple said:
rscott said:
I'd assume something in the connector negotiates the pressure (either an electronic or mechanical interface).
Still don't know where all the green hydrogen will come from for this though - the IEA were very clear about the potential production volumes and it's nowhere near enough to cope with heavy goods usage, let alone cars..
Brown coal. Same as always. It has to be made near where it will be used so for much of Europe that means a lignite source. Still don't know where all the green hydrogen will come from for this though - the IEA were very clear about the potential production volumes and it's nowhere near enough to cope with heavy goods usage, let alone cars..
https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
LasseV said:
DonkeyApple said:
rscott said:
I'd assume something in the connector negotiates the pressure (either an electronic or mechanical interface).
Still don't know where all the green hydrogen will come from for this though - the IEA were very clear about the potential production volumes and it's nowhere near enough to cope with heavy goods usage, let alone cars..
Brown coal. Same as always. It has to be made near where it will be used so for much of Europe that means a lignite source. Still don't know where all the green hydrogen will come from for this though - the IEA were very clear about the potential production volumes and it's nowhere near enough to cope with heavy goods usage, let alone cars..
https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
When one steps back from all the free money scams, spin and PR to consider the reality of GH and what the limited supply from limited locations needs to be used for the whole financial charade collapses rather quickly.
We only have to look at this very simply. GH is to be manufactured from excess renewable electricity. So, why don't you explain to the class all the locations within the EU that have excess renewable electricity today, are expected to in 2030 and then in 2040.
Secondly, please explain how the transport industry will outbid the existing grey hydrogen industries for any capacity?
It's all very interesting but your religious belief that Barry and Barryetta will be cruising around in hydrogen cars is the same as all religious beliefs, fantasy that flies in the face of the true reality.
DonkeyApple said:
LasseV said:
DonkeyApple said:
rscott said:
I'd assume something in the connector negotiates the pressure (either an electronic or mechanical interface).
Still don't know where all the green hydrogen will come from for this though - the IEA were very clear about the potential production volumes and it's nowhere near enough to cope with heavy goods usage, let alone cars..
Brown coal. Same as always. It has to be made near where it will be used so for much of Europe that means a lignite source. Still don't know where all the green hydrogen will come from for this though - the IEA were very clear about the potential production volumes and it's nowhere near enough to cope with heavy goods usage, let alone cars..
https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
When one steps back from all the free money scams, spin and PR to consider the reality of GH and what the limited supply from limited locations needs to be used for the whole financial charade collapses rather quickly.
We only have to look at this very simply. GH is to be manufactured from excess renewable electricity. So, why don't you explain to the class all the locations within the EU that have excess renewable electricity today, are expected to in 2030 and then in 2040.
Secondly, please explain how the transport industry will outbid the existing grey hydrogen industries for any capacity?
It's all very interesting but your religious belief that Barry and Barryetta will be cruising around in hydrogen cars is the same as all religious beliefs, fantasy that flies in the face of the true reality.
LasseV said:
Excess renewable energy in a near future? Easy task my friend. Nordic countries, Spain and Portucal, Marocco to name a few countries which will be a GH producers and exporters.
Ok. How is the Ouarzazate project going? What about the transMed cables? Where's the funding for the hydrogen shipping?You need to look beyond the fund raising hype of these projects and consider the realities.
For example, what are the global GH predicted volumes by 2035? And which industries have already optioned that supply up?
And that's before one even considers the internal demand for renewables in the EU and in which decade there is predicted to be any surplus?
Why do you think EU policy is aiming to define exactly what 'excess' renewable energy is?
And of course, the simple reality that GH will always be at least 2-3x more expensive than the electricity it is manufactured from, before one even considers the infrastructure cost, which makes it very clear that it only has a value where electricity cannot work and where there are growing tax penalties. That alone tells us where the true demand and money for GH lies.
LasseV said:
Or green hydrogen
https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
Despite others admitting failure?https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
https://newatlas.com/energy/japan-hydrogen-policy-...
NMNeil said:
LasseV said:
Or green hydrogen
https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
Despite others admitting failure?https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
https://newatlas.com/energy/japan-hydrogen-policy-...
It takes few minutes to google.
LasseV said:
NMNeil said:
LasseV said:
Or green hydrogen
https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
Despite others admitting failure?https://www.h2-view.com/story/european-installed-h...
2GW set to be comissioned and 7.3GW of green hydrogen projects are waiting to receive final investment decision in 2023 to meet project go-live timelines.
Yeah, green hydrogen is scaling up rapidly. No matter what you say, because you are wrong. That's the way it is.
https://newatlas.com/energy/japan-hydrogen-policy-...
It takes few minutes to google.
https://www.trade.gov/market-intelligence/japan-el...
Sounds like its running a poor second to BEV. Even Toyota have tiny sales targets for Hydrogen cars.
Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 15th March 09:51
98elise said:
Agreed, very easy to Google. BEV's outsell FCEV 10 to 1 in Japan...
https://www.trade.gov/market-intelligence/japan-el...
Sounds like is running a poor second to BEV. Even Toyota have tiny sales targets for the Hydrogen cars.
The packaging is problematic. Japan likes smaller cars, kei and "small size" (<4.7m long, 1.7m wide) cars dominate new car sales.https://www.trade.gov/market-intelligence/japan-el...
Sounds like is running a poor second to BEV. Even Toyota have tiny sales targets for the Hydrogen cars.
The Mirai is huge, and yet only manages passenger and boot space of a small hatchback. H2 cars in line with Japanese tastes will either have terrible range, limited interior space, or both.
NGK210 said:
Merry said:
NGK210 said:
And for anyone burdened with living in a 2nd-floor or higher apartment, in cities such as lil’ ol’ Edinburgh or London, a 13A socket will suffice?
Not everyone lives in a suburban semi-detached.
Fixing that problem involves a significantly smaller leap of imagination than making green hydrogen and it's supporting infrastructure viable... Not everyone lives in a suburban semi-detached.
I could train a parrot to say 'prove it'.
Anyway, Merry's is a statement of fact. Where you sit now, what is closer? A source of 13A electrical power or source of 99.9% Hydrogen?
ETA: What about where your car sits? still 13A electrical power? what about the place where you currently fill your car up? still 13A?
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 15th March 10:34
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