Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
LasseV said:
tamore said:
i see shell has closed all their H2 filling stations in the UK. down to 6 now. doesn't feel like the fuel of the future.
It is not a fuel of the future, it is fuel for this day and age.This is from test Ioniq 6 vs Nexo. 2 day 1500km trip and Nexo did kick Ioniq's ass.
"Our general conclusion, regardless of the discussion whether you can make electricity or hydrogen in the most environmentally friendly way: hydrogen is not the solution of the future, it is already convenient to use today with technology that can be used now. And it is a solid alternative to the electric car."
2. The hydrogen car has a lot of commercial potential
The trip clocked in at 1,457 kilometers. Joost refueled for 118.57 euros and had five percent battery capacity left back in Kontich. All in all, Brecht filled up with hydrogen for 190.30 euros and had 31 percent of his tank left on arrival. A difference of 70 euros, which would of course have been smaller if Brecht had only had a five percent 'surplus'. So: although hydrogen has not yet been widely rolled out commercially, the price of a refuelling is already competitive compared to electricity.
Actually, that also applies to the price of the car. The Nexo costs 73,990 euros. The Ioniq 6 with most powerful battery, as we got it for this exercise, 67,250 euros. We can only conclude that the H2 car has great commercial potential.
3. The hydrogen car has the greatest ease of use
In terms of ease of use, hydrogen has already surpassed the electric car. It took Brecht five to six minutes to refuel. That is comparable to what we have been used to with petrol and diesel for years. Of course, this has consequences for travel time. While Joost was still somewhere in Germany, Brecht was already cooking pasta at home.
Our general conclusion, regardless of the discussion whether you can make electricity or hydrogen in the most environmentally friendly way: hydrogen is not the solution of the future, it is already convenient to use today with technology that can be used now. And it is a solid alternative to the electric car."
https://www.hln.be/mobiliteit/de-grote-test-onze-j...
Good article to read. Of course im living in EU and you are living in post-brexit UK. H2 passenger cars will be a big part of EU mobility and we will have a EU wide hydrogen station network. So there ia that, i don't know what UK gov is doing for this matter.
At the moment, if I want to drive an EV from the UK to Switzerland to visit family, that's easy enough already - plenty of charging stations en route and I can take it on Le Shuttle, avoiding the worst of the border delays.
However, if I had an hydrogen powered vehicle and somehow got enough fuel to get to the coast, I'd have to take it on a ferry (not allowed in the tunnel), crawl through the border control there, then have little or no choice over my route across Europe. It'd be set by the massively limited number of filling stations available.
As for that newspaper article - it's an abysmal piece. Notice how it switched between km and miles when discussing the impact of AC on the EV. That's deliberate to make the difference appear much more substantial.
And the cost comparison - much of the charging was using Ionity fast chargers, which are some of the most expensive available. It's highly unlikely anyone is going to use those all the time, they'll slow charge overnight most of the time which is always far cheaper.
In their comparison, the h2 car was about €100 cheaper to run over 1600km , so they say it's better value, while only briefly mentioning it costs €12,000 more. My maths suggests that means the h2 doesn't cost less to run until you've covered 120x1600km...
Hydrogen manufacturing facility in Wales being heavily opposed on basis of being too close to homes and an already over-capacity motorway junction.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations...
tamore said:
nice story.
try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
EU is actually heavily investing in hydrogen infrastructure, by mid-decade there'll be hundreds. I'm not suggesting it'll make hydrogen cars viable or they'll even be light vehicle compatible though!try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations...
Evanivitch said:
Hydrogen manufacturing facility in Wales being heavily opposed on basis of being too close to homes and an already over-capacity motorway junction.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations...
Most of those new stations are compatible with both 350 bars and 700bars. All the vans are going for 700 bar system (same as passenger cars).tamore said:
nice story.
try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
EU is actually heavily investing in hydrogen infrastructure, by mid-decade there'll be hundreds. I'm not suggesting it'll make hydrogen cars viable or they'll even be light vehicle compatible though!try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations...
Evanivitch said:
Hydrogen manufacturing facility in Wales being heavily opposed on basis of being too close to homes and an already over-capacity motorway junction.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations...
if they are supplied with the product of natural gas reforming, it would be farcical. there is no path to anywhere near the volume of green hydrogen needed to make it even an LPG level road fuel. tamore said:
nice story.
try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
EU is actually heavily investing in hydrogen infrastructure, by mid-decade there'll be hundreds. I'm not suggesting it'll make hydrogen cars viable or they'll even be light vehicle compatible though!try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations...
rscott said:
LasseV said:
tamore said:
i see shell has closed all their H2 filling stations in the UK. down to 6 now. doesn't feel like the fuel of the future.
It is not a fuel of the future, it is fuel for this day and age.This is from test Ioniq 6 vs Nexo. 2 day 1500km trip and Nexo did kick Ioniq's ass.
"Our general conclusion, regardless of the discussion whether you can make electricity or hydrogen in the most environmentally friendly way: hydrogen is not the solution of the future, it is already convenient to use today with technology that can be used now. And it is a solid alternative to the electric car."
2. The hydrogen car has a lot of commercial potential
The trip clocked in at 1,457 kilometers. Joost refueled for 118.57 euros and had five percent battery capacity left back in Kontich. All in all, Brecht filled up with hydrogen for 190.30 euros and had 31 percent of his tank left on arrival. A difference of 70 euros, which would of course have been smaller if Brecht had only had a five percent 'surplus'. So: although hydrogen has not yet been widely rolled out commercially, the price of a refuelling is already competitive compared to electricity.
Actually, that also applies to the price of the car. The Nexo costs 73,990 euros. The Ioniq 6 with most powerful battery, as we got it for this exercise, 67,250 euros. We can only conclude that the H2 car has great commercial potential.
3. The hydrogen car has the greatest ease of use
In terms of ease of use, hydrogen has already surpassed the electric car. It took Brecht five to six minutes to refuel. That is comparable to what we have been used to with petrol and diesel for years. Of course, this has consequences for travel time. While Joost was still somewhere in Germany, Brecht was already cooking pasta at home.
Our general conclusion, regardless of the discussion whether you can make electricity or hydrogen in the most environmentally friendly way: hydrogen is not the solution of the future, it is already convenient to use today with technology that can be used now. And it is a solid alternative to the electric car."
https://www.hln.be/mobiliteit/de-grote-test-onze-j...
Good article to read. Of course im living in EU and you are living in post-brexit UK. H2 passenger cars will be a big part of EU mobility and we will have a EU wide hydrogen station network. So there ia that, i don't know what UK gov is doing for this matter.
At the moment, if I want to drive an EV from the UK to Switzerland to visit family, that's easy enough already - plenty of charging stations en route and I can take it on Le Shuttle, avoiding the worst of the border delays.
However, if I had an hydrogen powered vehicle and somehow got enough fuel to get to the coast, I'd have to take it on a ferry (not allowed in the tunnel), crawl through the border control there, then have little or no choice over my route across Europe. It'd be set by the massively limited number of filling stations available.
As for that newspaper article - it's an abysmal piece. Notice how it switched between km and miles when discussing the impact of AC on the EV. That's deliberate to make the difference appear much more substantial.
And the cost comparison - much of the charging was using Ionity fast chargers, which are some of the most expensive available. It's highly unlikely anyone is going to use those all the time, they'll slow charge overnight most of the time which is always far cheaper.
In their comparison, the h2 car was about €100 cheaper to run over 1600km , so they say it's better value, while only briefly mentioning it costs €12,000 more. My maths suggests that means the h2 doesn't cost less to run until you've covered 120x1600km...
https://h2.live/en/tankstellen/
About that price difference. Toyota Mirai cost same as Ioniq 6 so price difference is non-existing. Nexo is more expensive because it is older tech car, so it is more expensive to produce than Mirai. Even tho it does'n have as much power or range as Mirai. New fuel cell stacks are cheaper than old ones...
tamore said:
Evanivitch said:
Hydrogen manufacturing facility in Wales being heavily opposed on basis of being too close to homes and an already over-capacity motorway junction.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations...
if they are supplied with the product of natural gas reforming, it would be farcical. there is no path to anywhere near the volume of green hydrogen needed to make it even an LPG level road fuel. tamore said:
nice story.
try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
EU is actually heavily investing in hydrogen infrastructure, by mid-decade there'll be hundreds. I'm not suggesting it'll make hydrogen cars viable or they'll even be light vehicle compatible though!try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations...
LasseV said:
It will be green hydrogen. There are several EU countries at the moment which has negative electricity prices...
and yet less than 2% of global H2 is produced directly from electrolysis. so there's a 98% gap to just get to what's needed today, then how many multiples to supply road transport?LasseV said:
Actually it is quite "easy" to make a road trip h2 in central Europe. It is doable to drive through germany to Swizerland etc. It gets easier month after month. This is one station network map but i doubt it has every EU stations.
https://h2.live/en/tankstellen/
About that price difference. Toyota Mirai cost same as Ioniq 6 so price difference is non-existing. Nexo is more expensive because it is older tech car, so it is more expensive to produce than Mirai. Even tho it does'n have as much power or range as Mirai. New fuel cell stacks are cheaper than old ones...
Hmm. No filling stations between Calais and Antwerp though - that's 200km+ so a not insignificant gap in coverage.https://h2.live/en/tankstellen/
About that price difference. Toyota Mirai cost same as Ioniq 6 so price difference is non-existing. Nexo is more expensive because it is older tech car, so it is more expensive to produce than Mirai. Even tho it does'n have as much power or range as Mirai. New fuel cell stacks are cheaper than old ones...
Surprised the h2 industry haven't funded an online route planner to help with this sort of thing. Or are they worried it'll show how bad their infrastructure currently is?
I can't comment on the Mirai pricing as Toyota don't even publish it in the UK any more. Presumably because they know they aren't a practical vehicle for 90% of the population.
rscott said:
LasseV said:
Actually it is quite "easy" to make a road trip h2 in central Europe. It is doable to drive through germany to Swizerland etc. It gets easier month after month. This is one station network map but i doubt it has every EU stations.
https://h2.live/en/tankstellen/
About that price difference. Toyota Mirai cost same as Ioniq 6 so price difference is non-existing. Nexo is more expensive because it is older tech car, so it is more expensive to produce than Mirai. Even tho it does'n have as much power or range as Mirai. New fuel cell stacks are cheaper than old ones...
Hmm. No filling stations between Calais and Antwerp though - that's 200km+ so a not insignificant gap in coverage.https://h2.live/en/tankstellen/
About that price difference. Toyota Mirai cost same as Ioniq 6 so price difference is non-existing. Nexo is more expensive because it is older tech car, so it is more expensive to produce than Mirai. Even tho it does'n have as much power or range as Mirai. New fuel cell stacks are cheaper than old ones...
Surprised the h2 industry haven't funded an online route planner to help with this sort of thing. Or are they worried it'll show how bad their infrastructure currently is?
I can't comment on the Mirai pricing as Toyota don't even publish it in the UK any more. Presumably because they know they aren't a practical vehicle for 90% of the population.
Until recently you could pick up a second hand low mileage one for 9k
The US is the second biggest market IIRC.
Edited to add a link....
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/10/2021-toyota-mi...
$20k discount from Toyota + 8k federal tax rebate + 4k California rebate and $15k of free fuel.
I wonder how much Toyota lose on every car?
Edited by 98elise on Sunday 28th May 17:38
98elise said:
In the US they were practically giving them away and still only sell a couple of thousand a year. Nobody paid anything like the list price.
Until recently you could pick up a second hand low mileage one for 9k
The US is the second biggest market IIRC.
Edited to add a link....
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/10/2021-toyota-mi...
$20k discount from Toyota + 8k federal tax rebate + 4k California rebate and $15k of free fuel.
I wonder how much Toyota lose on every car?
Specifically California only as that’s where the only H2 filling infrastructure is, which is still virtually all grey hydrogen. Just like these also ridiculous European schemes that are hoodwinking the gullible such as our Finnish friend above. The other 49 states, they are not available for sale as there’s no infrastructure to support them. Until recently you could pick up a second hand low mileage one for 9k
The US is the second biggest market IIRC.
Edited to add a link....
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/10/2021-toyota-mi...
$20k discount from Toyota + 8k federal tax rebate + 4k California rebate and $15k of free fuel.
I wonder how much Toyota lose on every car?
Edited by 98elise on Sunday 28th May 17:38
It's the insanity of provincial governments. Whether here or overseas they are comprised of the political dregs, the failures, the losers, the people who just don't cut it on the front line. They see short term personal gain from putting these vehicles in their streets when in reality they are a part of the problem, not any solution.
Every molecule of green hydrogen wasted in a car or bus is the release of a grey hydrogen molecule from a fossil fuel.
The lunacy really does need to be nipped in the bud before these people rally too many idiots to their pocket lining, religious ferver.
Burning green hydrogen in buses and cars while industry still uses grey hydrogen. You genuinely couldn't make it up. These people are complete 'tards.
Every molecule of green hydrogen wasted in a car or bus is the release of a grey hydrogen molecule from a fossil fuel.
The lunacy really does need to be nipped in the bud before these people rally too many idiots to their pocket lining, religious ferver.
Burning green hydrogen in buses and cars while industry still uses grey hydrogen. You genuinely couldn't make it up. These people are complete 'tards.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Sunday 28th May 19:07
tamore said:
nice story.
try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
Registration of fuel cell cars in 2021try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
Spain 9
France 14
UK 12
Not much incentive to spend millions on infrastructure to fill up so few cars.
NMNeil said:
tamore said:
nice story.
try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
Registration of fuel cell cars in 2021try driving to spain using H2, or france. pretty sure they're still in the EU and have less stations than the UK!
also, battery tech/ charging infrastructure advancement is going to make this a nonsense argument by the time this decade is out. EU or not EU.
Spain 9
France 14
UK 12
Not much incentive to spend millions on infrastructure to fill up so few cars.
LasseV said:
Undercover McNoName said:
LasseV said:
And whole Germany gas pipeline network is compatible with hydrogen.
https://www.breakinglatest.news/business/hydrogen-...
Lol, have you got a more reliable source?https://www.breakinglatest.news/business/hydrogen-...
And how about replying to the posters who reply to you, instead of just posting more hydrogen fairy tales.
You can translate it. It is a real thing.
Replying them is waste of my time. They are writing nonsense and EU is actually doing opposide things what they are writing. So there is that. Eu is scaling up RE and hydrogen is a very important piece of EU's energy infrastructure. Including road transport. Electricity was today less than 1 sent per kwh in Finland....
They’re clever those Germans, or maybe someone’s not being completely honest about the situation? Afterall, it’s not like German industry would ever deliberately misrepresent something on a massive scale is it?
dvs_dave said:
That’s very convenient. Germany’s entire natural gas distribution network just happens to already be 100% H2 compatible without modification. Gosh, that is a stroke of luck. I wonder how that just happened? Got to wonder why that’s not the case for every other country’s natural gas distribution systems using the same technology.
They’re clever those Germans, or maybe someone’s not being completely honest about the situation? Afterall, it’s not like German industry would ever deliberately misrepresent something on a massive scale is it?
All they have to do now is make the hydrogen from the natural gas they don't have, the oil they don't have and the renewable electricity they don't have, add all the hydrogen powered cars they don't have and Klaus is your uncle. Job jobbed. They’re clever those Germans, or maybe someone’s not being completely honest about the situation? Afterall, it’s not like German industry would ever deliberately misrepresent something on a massive scale is it?
Ooh, they have a lot of dirty brown coal though that they used last time to make their eco fuels from.
DonkeyApple said:
All they have to do now is make the hydrogen from the natural gas they don't have, the oil they don't have and the renewable electricity they don't have, add all the hydrogen powered cars they don't have and Klaus is your uncle. Job jobbed.
Ooh, they have a lot of dirty brown coal though that they used last time to make their eco fuels from.
As long as it’s all painted white, with splashes of sky-blue and dabs of green here and there, it’s as good as 100% sustainable, zero emissions, and the earth friendly eco endgame.Ooh, they have a lot of dirty brown coal though that they used last time to make their eco fuels from.
DonkeyApple said:
dvs_dave said:
That’s very convenient. Germany’s entire natural gas distribution network just happens to already be 100% H2 compatible without modification. Gosh, that is a stroke of luck. I wonder how that just happened? Got to wonder why that’s not the case for every other country’s natural gas distribution systems using the same technology.
They’re clever those Germans, or maybe someone’s not being completely honest about the situation? Afterall, it’s not like German industry would ever deliberately misrepresent something on a massive scale is it?
All they have to do now is make the hydrogen from the natural gas they don't have, the oil they don't have and the renewable electricity they don't have, add all the hydrogen powered cars they don't have and Klaus is your uncle. Job jobbed. They’re clever those Germans, or maybe someone’s not being completely honest about the situation? Afterall, it’s not like German industry would ever deliberately misrepresent something on a massive scale is it?
Ooh, they have a lot of dirty brown coal though that they used last time to make their eco fuels from.
https://www.ir.plugpower.com/press-releases/news-d...
Because we have a lot of renewable electricity.
Btw,
Porvoo, Finland: This site will produce up to 100TPD by 2030. The hydrogen will be used for local mobility and exported through pipeline injection to Western Europe.
Few anti-h2 lunatics was wrong, again.
LasseV said:
This is so funny.
https://www.ir.plugpower.com/press-releases/news-d...
Because we have a lot of renewable electricity.
Btw,
Porvoo, Finland: This site will produce up to 100TPD by 2030. The hydrogen will be used for local mobility and exported through pipeline injection to Western Europe.
Few anti-h2 lunatics was wrong, again.
I'm pro H2. Unfortunately, the lunatics are the vandals and religious loons who want to waste it in cars!!!! Mental. https://www.ir.plugpower.com/press-releases/news-d...
Because we have a lot of renewable electricity.
Btw,
Porvoo, Finland: This site will produce up to 100TPD by 2030. The hydrogen will be used for local mobility and exported through pipeline injection to Western Europe.
Few anti-h2 lunatics was wrong, again.
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