Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
madbadger said:
I drove a Mirai in 2016 as a fully viable car and went out in BMW's 3GT based demonstrator (as a passenger because it was too expensive to let anyone apart from the BMW test driver drive it).
Both were fine. Drove like any other electric car. Bit boring if anything.
Fuelling was easy. did it on both and it was very much like filling up petrol or lpg I guess.
Back then it was obvious it was the infrastructure that needed sorting, not the cars.
Even if the infrastructure was magically in place... Unless you frequently exceed current EV range, the only differences if you opted for a fuel cell car would be negative:Both were fine. Drove like any other electric car. Bit boring if anything.
Fuelling was easy. did it on both and it was very much like filling up petrol or lpg I guess.
Back then it was obvious it was the infrastructure that needed sorting, not the cars.
- slower
- more expensive to run
- more expensive to buy
- more complex
- more hardware to package
- unable to charge at home
And even if a lot of people genuinely did need the range and refill times of a FCEV, that would only be the case until battery density improves, at which point the infrastructure would start to reduce again.
Although there are seemingly a lot of people on PH who need more range than an EV can provide and need to fill up in 5 minutes ish.
madbadger said:
yes - I agree. It was more a comment on James May complaining about the infrastructure.
Although there are seemingly a lot of people on PH who need more range than an EV can provide and need to fill up in 5 minutes ish.
I was talking to one of those this weekend. Bought a new company car and is paying the extra taxes to not get an EV.Although there are seemingly a lot of people on PH who need more range than an EV can provide and need to fill up in 5 minutes ish.
After talking to him he was convinced he did too much km's for an EV. Has a garage and driveway... does 150km/day.
I explained him the reality of filling up at home and that does seem like a hard concept for a lot people to initially understand. I overbought as well, buying an EV with a lot more range than I need and a charger at home a lot more powerful than I need. All to do just 40 000km/year.
ZesPak said:
madbadger said:
yes - I agree. It was more a comment on James May complaining about the infrastructure.
Although there are seemingly a lot of people on PH who need more range than an EV can provide and need to fill up in 5 minutes ish.
I was talking to one of those this weekend. Bought a new company car and is paying the extra taxes to not get an EV.Although there are seemingly a lot of people on PH who need more range than an EV can provide and need to fill up in 5 minutes ish.
After talking to him he was convinced he did too much km's for an EV. Has a garage and driveway... does 150km/day.
I explained him the reality of filling up at home and that does seem like a hard concept for a lot people to initially understand. I overbought as well, buying an EV with a lot more range than I need and a charger at home a lot more powerful than I need. All to do just 40 000km/year.
The direct £££ approach is needed to get these people to actually think through the suitability of EV
Although if he's paying BIK and some private fuel on a company ICE he's probably losing a lot more than a few hundred quid a month actually...
TheDeuce said:
Just look him in the eye and say "you're wasting several hundred pounds a month".
The direct £££ approach is needed to get these people to actually think through the suitability of EV
Although if he's paying BIK and some private fuel on a company ICE he's probably losing a lot more than a few hundred quid a month actually...
He's self employed. He's throwing thousands away.The direct £££ approach is needed to get these people to actually think through the suitability of EV
Although if he's paying BIK and some private fuel on a company ICE he's probably losing a lot more than a few hundred quid a month actually...
Not to mention his car is too small for his family anyway, they take the wife's SUV when on holidays.
ZesPak said:
TheDeuce said:
Just look him in the eye and say "you're wasting several hundred pounds a month".
The direct £££ approach is needed to get these people to actually think through the suitability of EV
Although if he's paying BIK and some private fuel on a company ICE he's probably losing a lot more than a few hundred quid a month actually...
He's self employed. He's throwing thousands away.The direct £££ approach is needed to get these people to actually think through the suitability of EV
Although if he's paying BIK and some private fuel on a company ICE he's probably losing a lot more than a few hundred quid a month actually...
Not to mention his car is too small for his family anyway, they take the wife's SUV when on holidays.
Interesting article in the Guardian about hydrogen and it's place in the future of transport. Part of a series exploring EVs etc and debunking some myths.
Helpfully dumbs it down to my level!
Although they have got a quote from a researcher into EVs who has a monetary stake in an EV company. So although I largely trust the Guardian over the usual media outlets, that's not the best look!
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/13/w...
Helpfully dumbs it down to my level!
Although they have got a quote from a researcher into EVs who has a monetary stake in an EV company. So although I largely trust the Guardian over the usual media outlets, that's not the best look!
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/13/w...
Grapevine226 said:
Interesting article in the Guardian about hydrogen and it's place in the future of transport. Part of a series exploring EVs etc and debunking some myths.
Helpfully dumbs it down to my level!
Although they have got a quote from a researcher into EVs who has a monetary stake in an EV company. So although I largely trust the Guardian over the usual media outlets, that's not the best look!
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/13/w...
The overall efficiency charts in that article are fantastic, they so clearly show the problem with hydrogen, however green it might be claimed..Helpfully dumbs it down to my level!
Although they have got a quote from a researcher into EVs who has a monetary stake in an EV company. So although I largely trust the Guardian over the usual media outlets, that's not the best look!
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/13/w...
The BEV is cleaner than shown too, it's the only car type with a large enough batter to store useful amounts of cheap, renewable energy - this helping us lean more heavily on renewables.
This sort of info should be enough to convince anyone really - but it's clear the stubborn would rather not read anything that might upset their desire for BEV to not be the solution.
Good article.
I have yet to read anyone pick up on the supply chain aspects though.
There's a fairly common complaint about lithium running out.
And yet, the carbon fibre dependency conundrum for the hydrogen pathway is always overlooked.
The global market for carbon fibre is currently 150,000 tons, forecast to grow to 250,000 tons in 5 years.
20% of that is used for energy applications such a wind turbines.
Hydrogen has this characteristic that whatever method is used to 'store' it, the mass of storage material is far larger than the mass of hydrogen.
Petrol is 16% hydrogen, 84% carbon, by mass.
Metal hydride storage, e.g. Powerpaste requires a 10:1 mass ratio of magnesium to hydrogen.
Ultra-compressed hydrogen, e.g. 700 bar tanks in fuel cell cars, requires a 10:1 mass ratio of carbon fibre to hydrogen.
A fuel cell car require about 100 kg of hydrogen each year, stored in approx. 5 kg amounts between each refill.
50 kg of carbon fibre per car.
And now here's the issue, the number of wind turbines to make the fuel cell car renewably powered would mean allocating about 300 kg of the total mass of each wind turbine to each car, increasing the carbon fibre per car.
Even at 50 kg per car, just a few million fuel cell cars wipe out the entire global supply.
Carbon fibre is fossil-fuel sourced, has a fatigue-limited life when used in extreme applications and recycling opportunities are rare.
I'd therefore like to nominate carbon fibre to go on the fuel cell bingo list, at least until someone can prove that I'm talking b
ks.
I have yet to read anyone pick up on the supply chain aspects though.
There's a fairly common complaint about lithium running out.
And yet, the carbon fibre dependency conundrum for the hydrogen pathway is always overlooked.
The global market for carbon fibre is currently 150,000 tons, forecast to grow to 250,000 tons in 5 years.
20% of that is used for energy applications such a wind turbines.
Hydrogen has this characteristic that whatever method is used to 'store' it, the mass of storage material is far larger than the mass of hydrogen.
Petrol is 16% hydrogen, 84% carbon, by mass.
Metal hydride storage, e.g. Powerpaste requires a 10:1 mass ratio of magnesium to hydrogen.
Ultra-compressed hydrogen, e.g. 700 bar tanks in fuel cell cars, requires a 10:1 mass ratio of carbon fibre to hydrogen.
A fuel cell car require about 100 kg of hydrogen each year, stored in approx. 5 kg amounts between each refill.
50 kg of carbon fibre per car.
And now here's the issue, the number of wind turbines to make the fuel cell car renewably powered would mean allocating about 300 kg of the total mass of each wind turbine to each car, increasing the carbon fibre per car.
Even at 50 kg per car, just a few million fuel cell cars wipe out the entire global supply.
Carbon fibre is fossil-fuel sourced, has a fatigue-limited life when used in extreme applications and recycling opportunities are rare.
I'd therefore like to nominate carbon fibre to go on the fuel cell bingo list, at least until someone can prove that I'm talking b
ks.ZesPak said:
He's self employed. He's throwing thousands away.
Not to mention his car is too small for his family anyway, they take the wife's SUV when on holidays.
This makes no sense. If self-employed, it’s not a company car, and no benefit in kind. If self-employed there is no great financial incentive to getting an EV. That only works for employees Not to mention his car is too small for his family anyway, they take the wife's SUV when on holidays.
oop north said:
ZesPak said:
He's self employed. He's throwing thousands away.
Not to mention his car is too small for his family anyway, they take the wife's SUV when on holidays.
This makes no sense. If self-employed, it’s not a company car, and no benefit in kind. If self-employed there is no great financial incentive to getting an EV. That only works for employees Not to mention his car is too small for his family anyway, they take the wife's SUV when on holidays.
Separately, also read about Google's plans to map and make available methane leakages, as seen from space.
Methane's contribution to greenhouse gases is something like a third in terms of GWP.
I believe CO2 leakage can also be mapped by satellite.
Hopefully this will keep tabs on the 'leakiness' of the blue hydrogen projects coming our way.
Methane's contribution to greenhouse gases is something like a third in terms of GWP.
I believe CO2 leakage can also be mapped by satellite.
Hopefully this will keep tabs on the 'leakiness' of the blue hydrogen projects coming our way.
GT9 said:
Was reading about Plug Power's woes today.
Burning through over $1B in cash to generate under $1B in revenue annually.
Gross margin -70%....
Announced today a $75M cost cutting plan.
Developing tech for green hydrogen / fuel cell business is expensive!
Don't worry, they're not paying their own bills - one way or another us tax paying citizens are Burning through over $1B in cash to generate under $1B in revenue annually.
Gross margin -70%....
Announced today a $75M cost cutting plan.
Developing tech for green hydrogen / fuel cell business is expensive!
GT9 said:
Separately, also read about Google's plans to map and make available methane leakages, as seen from space.
Methane's contribution to greenhouse gases is something like a third in terms of GWP.
I believe CO2 leakage can also be mapped by satellite.
Hopefully this will keep tabs on the 'leakiness' of the blue hydrogen projects coming our way.
That's critical information. Thanks so much for sharing. Please keep us updated with future developments of greenhouse gas leakage detection you discover Methane's contribution to greenhouse gases is something like a third in terms of GWP.
I believe CO2 leakage can also be mapped by satellite.
Hopefully this will keep tabs on the 'leakiness' of the blue hydrogen projects coming our way.
TheDeuce said:
At least it nearly illustrates the scale of problem some people have giving up that which is familiar. There's often no sense and limited knowledge behind a given stance. Limited interest/fear of what is new tends to put people off seriously considering it and gaining knowledge in the first place.
There has been a concerted effort by the right wing media to demonise EVs. The Heil, the S*n and GBeebies are especially bad - they weaponise ignorance and stupidity. Your example is perfect - could do almost all of their trips in a car which charges overnight.Was in a Tesla taxi in Hatfield on Tuesday. Charged overnight on an Octopus tariff, rarely needs charging during the day as his taxiing is usually around 200 miles a day. No maintenance. He's making an absolute bomb.
Zigster said:
I remember a business trip to Amsterdam in about 2016/17. All the taxis at the airport were Tesla Model S. Quite an eye opener for me - I hadn’t really looked into BEVs before then and was surprised they were being used as taxis because of (my assumed) issues with range.
EV's are perfect for Taxi work as their peak efficiency is at low speeds. For a Tesla it's something like 25mph.Zigster said:
I remember a business trip to Amsterdam in about 2016/17. All the taxis at the airport were Tesla Model S. Quite an eye opener for me - I hadn’t really looked into BEVs before then and was surprised they were being used as taxis because of (my assumed) issues with range.
EV's are perfect for Taxi work as their peak efficiency is at low speeds. For a Tesla it's something like 25mph.98elise said:
EV's are perfect for Taxi work as their peak efficiency is at low speeds. For a Tesla it's something like 25mph.
Same for ICE. ICE have their "optimal engine efficiency rpm", and a higher speed would also result for a big aero hit.Where EV's shine compared to ICE is that, mainly due to regen, they take a much smaller hit when accelerating and decelerating in traffic. Also, while having an optimal motor RPM, it's much less relevant than with ICE.
These two factors are the main reasons that an ICE mpg is higher on highway, while an EV efficiency seems better in traffic.
Ideally, both would best be run at a constant 25mph. In reality, EV's are just much better at handling real life scenarios.
Edited by ZesPak on Thursday 15th February 10:11
ZesPak said:
98elise said:
EV's are perfect for Taxi work as their peak efficiency is at low speeds. For a Tesla it's something like 25mph.
Same for ICE. ICE have their "optimal engine efficiency rpm", and a higher speed would also result for a big aero hit.Where EV's shine compared to ICE is that, mainly due to regen, they take a much smaller hit when accelerating and decelerating in traffic. Also, while having an optimal motor RPM, it's much less relevant than with ICE.
These two factors are the main reasons that an ICE mpg is higher on highway, while an EV efficiency seems better in traffic.
Ideally, both would best be run at a constant 25mph. In reality, EV's are just much better at handling real life scenarios.
Edited by ZesPak on Thursday 15th February 10:11
We have a lot of EV taxis around here too, makes complete sense - the drivers get the same rate per mile but a fraction of the running costs of a diesel. When we book a taxi and it is a diesel we always hear it pull up as the poor thing sits there clattering away, a lifetime spent making short journeys and a driver that insists on block shifting from second to fifth at 7rpm in the hope of clawing back a few pennies.
It should be a no brainer to swap to an EV really.
But... What if a taxi driver can't charge at home..? I'm asking that question because I know someone else will, and they'll point out that paying public charger rates is far more expensive.
Here's some maths:
Average taxi mileage 46,500 (https://www.zego.com/blog/our-research-into-uk-taxi-drivers-2023/), and used as a taxi will struggle to exceed 35mpg. That means paying for 1,300 gallons, nearly 6000 litres of fuel a year... That's £9000 a year. If I used my EV as a taxi and charged at home id be paying £1600 a year for power. I'd also be saving at least another £1k a year on clutch and brakes.
For that sort of saving (effectively a pay rise), one way or another it's possible to have access to a private charger. I'd let a local cabbie use my drive and charger for half of that money per year..
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