Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
That would be a good idea.
But then you have the problem with adding the extra weight into the trailer on top of the carrying weight.
If you are going to carry 30 tons of cargo, then how much extra weight is needed to re-inforce the floor of the trailer unit to protect the batteries underneath, how much taller will this make the whole assembley?
Where as the motors are reasonably small, and the engines on tractor units very large, that is a lot of real estate for batteries.
The Tesla Truck won't work in the UK anyway, have you seen it? It's huge. Great in America, where every road is wide enough for Ford F-150s.
But then you have the problem with adding the extra weight into the trailer on top of the carrying weight.
If you are going to carry 30 tons of cargo, then how much extra weight is needed to re-inforce the floor of the trailer unit to protect the batteries underneath, how much taller will this make the whole assembley?
Where as the motors are reasonably small, and the engines on tractor units very large, that is a lot of real estate for batteries.
The Tesla Truck won't work in the UK anyway, have you seen it? It's huge. Great in America, where every road is wide enough for Ford F-150s.
320d is all you need said:
Where have I said you need to charge at 200kw at home
Please quote me
I'll wait.
Please quote me
I'll wait.
320d is all you need said:
...
I still maintain the Infrastructure is a problem. A genuine 300 mile range and an ability to fully recharge in 30 minutes after doing 300 miles is acceptable.
But this needs to be possible at home.
300 miles in 30 minutes is 200kW.I still maintain the Infrastructure is a problem. A genuine 300 mile range and an ability to fully recharge in 30 minutes after doing 300 miles is acceptable.
But this needs to be possible at home.
320d is all you need said:
ZesPak said:
300 miles in 30 minutes is 200kW.
Well you caught me there :-)I was under the impression 75KW would provide that sort of charging rate . But heck, I'm bad at math.
Driving 300 miles would take me 8h to charge at home. So plugging it in when I get home at 20h, "refilled" by 4h at night.
Edited by ZesPak on Tuesday 1st December 17:22
Agree with others that Hydrogen is probably going to play a role in heavier vehicle/transport modes, but I'm yet to be convinced for passenger cars, but I'm not against it. I think the new Mirai looks nice, much better than the previous generation and it will be interesting to see if Toyota sell many, I understand Japan itself is very much interested in hydrogen so toyota may have a domestic market at least.
I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
Funnily to see this thread pop up because my son's reached the age where he's got into Top Gear, and we've been working through the old episodes. A couple of days ago we watched one from around 2011 where they raised this exact thing.
They drove the Leaf and iMiev and while they said the cars were fine, there was range anxiety and they contrived to struggle finding a charge point. They ended the piece saying hydrogen was the future, not BEVs.
Two things were striking from it. BEVs have come so far since then that it made the piece seem far more dated than it actually was, and that the promise of hydrogen doesn't seem to have moved on at all.
They drove the Leaf and iMiev and while they said the cars were fine, there was range anxiety and they contrived to struggle finding a charge point. They ended the piece saying hydrogen was the future, not BEVs.
Two things were striking from it. BEVs have come so far since then that it made the piece seem far more dated than it actually was, and that the promise of hydrogen doesn't seem to have moved on at all.
Speed1283 said:
Agree with others that Hydrogen is probably going to play a role in heavier vehicle/transport modes, but I'm yet to be convinced for passenger cars, but I'm not against it. I think the new Mirai looks nice, much better than the previous generation and it will be interesting to see if Toyota sell many, I understand Japan itself is very much interested in hydrogen so toyota may have a domestic market at least.
I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
So why not run the trains on recycled (or even new) EV batteries? I don't imagine weight is a major issue? Why bother with the hydrogen nightmare?I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
jjwilde said:
So why not run the trains on recycled (or even new) EV batteries? I don't imagine weight is a major issue? Why bother with the hydrogen nightmare?
Like all hydrogen vehicles, batteries will be a part of it. There's too much regen to be harvested to not include it.The issue with only battery is whether you have the duty cycles that allow time to charge. I suspect in some cases we don't. On some lines in Wales might be possible, you'd likely use very little energy on the morning run carrying commuters down the valleys, but lots on the return afternoon rush.
The question is investment. South Wales is already being deceived with "new trains" that are Anglian EMU with new DMU fitted!
durbster said:
Funnily to see this thread pop up because my son's reached the age where he's got into Top Gear, and we've been working through the old episodes. A couple of days ago we watched one from around 2011 where they raised this exact thing.
They drove the Leaf and iMiev and while they said the cars were fine, there was range anxiety and they contrived to struggle finding a charge point. They ended the piece saying hydrogen was the future, not BEVs.
Two things were striking from it. BEVs have come so far since then that it made the piece seem far more dated than it actually was, and that the promise of hydrogen doesn't seem to have moved on at all.
We shouldn't underestimate the role played by Tesla, and possibly a couple of other mainstream players, in opening everyone's eyes to what is possible with batteries. My recollection is that in 2011, very few people would have had any faith in the idea that a BEV was a viable way forward, let alone the performance now on offer.They drove the Leaf and iMiev and while they said the cars were fine, there was range anxiety and they contrived to struggle finding a charge point. They ended the piece saying hydrogen was the future, not BEVs.
Two things were striking from it. BEVs have come so far since then that it made the piece seem far more dated than it actually was, and that the promise of hydrogen doesn't seem to have moved on at all.
In absence of that, hydrogen was the only thing that seemed to offer any kind of opportunity to decrease hydrocarbon dependency. It is also a fairly easy sell to the average consumer, if wrapped up with a simplistic 'clean energy' slogan.
Just 9 years later, and the reality of the difference between the two approaches has been laid bare.
Hydrogen is an evolution of petrol and diesel, essentially its a low-carbon hydrocarbon when you consider that most of it's going to come from natural gas, but ultimately its still an inefficient energy conversion path that loses the majority of its energy to waste heat, with no intelligence or reversibility to manage energy movement.
Compare that with an intelligent network of grid-connected batteries and the ability to have extremely efficient bi-directional movement of energy, between both the vehicle wheels and the grid. The battery concept is a major revolution that will transform the way we consume energy for transportation.
It is not without it's challenges, and there is still a lot of unwillingness or inability to comprehend the scale of energy consumption improvement it offers, not to mention the potential for massive positive impact on local air quality.
It will be very interesting to have this same conversation in another 9 years time.
Evanivitch said:
Like all hydrogen vehicles, batteries will be a part of it. There's too much regen to be harvested to not include it.
The issue with only battery is whether you have the duty cycles that allow time to charge. I suspect in some cases we don't. On some lines in Wales might be possible, you'd likely use very little energy on the morning run carrying commuters down the valleys, but lots on the return afternoon rush.
The question is investment. South Wales is already being deceived with "new trains" that are Anglian EMU with new DMU fitted!
The new Metro trains here in Newcastle can run on both battery power and overhead (I assume the overhead charges the batteries when it can), this allows them to have much more freedom where/when the trains run.The issue with only battery is whether you have the duty cycles that allow time to charge. I suspect in some cases we don't. On some lines in Wales might be possible, you'd likely use very little energy on the morning run carrying commuters down the valleys, but lots on the return afternoon rush.
The question is investment. South Wales is already being deceived with "new trains" that are Anglian EMU with new DMU fitted!
Seems like it should just become the standard electric train design. If Teslas lorry can go 600 miles pulling 30 ton I don't think an electric train is anything special in terms of technology.
jjwilde said:
The new Metro trains here in Newcastle can run on both battery power and overhead (I assume the overhead charges the batteries when it can), this allows them to have much more freedom where/when the trains run.
Seems like it should just become the standard electric train design. If Teslas lorry can go 600 miles pulling 30 ton I don't think an electric train is anything special in terms of technology.
Have you seen the extent of electrified railway in Wales?Seems like it should just become the standard electric train design. If Teslas lorry can go 600 miles pulling 30 ton I don't think an electric train is anything special in terms of technology.
jjwilde said:
Most of Europe has 3 phase which would allow very fast charging, you can get 3phase put in any UK house, it's sometimes free to have it put it.
It cost me around £500 to get it, I can charge at 22kw.
That is seriously cheap.It cost me around £500 to get it, I can charge at 22kw.
Looks like its normally £3500 - £5500 for most people +VAT
https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/upgr...
Smiljan said:
That is seriously cheap.
Looks like its normally £3500 - £5500 for most people +VAT
https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/upgr...
We had the 3 phase line pulled when we built the house 5 years ago, was about 100 EUR extra I think over a regular one here on the mainland.Looks like its normally £3500 - £5500 for most people +VAT
https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/upgr...
A lot of EV's limited in their AC charging at 11KW though, so 3 phase might not be worth the extra for just one car.
Evanivitch said:
Like all hydrogen vehicles, batteries will be a part of it. There's too much regen to be harvested to not include it.
The issue with only battery is whether you have the duty cycles that allow time to charge. I suspect in some cases we don't. On some lines in Wales might be possible, you'd likely use very little energy on the morning run carrying commuters down the valleys, but lots on the return afternoon rush.
The question is investment. South Wales is already being deceived with "new trains" that are Anglian EMU with new DMU fitted!
Could they have a battery carriage? They could then just be decoupled and put on charge and a full one recoupled The issue with only battery is whether you have the duty cycles that allow time to charge. I suspect in some cases we don't. On some lines in Wales might be possible, you'd likely use very little energy on the morning run carrying commuters down the valleys, but lots on the return afternoon rush.
The question is investment. South Wales is already being deceived with "new trains" that are Anglian EMU with new DMU fitted!
Smiljan said:
That is seriously cheap.
Looks like its normally £3500 - £5500 for most people +VAT
https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/upgr...
Oh if you get them to dig the trench and do all the work the quotes can be mad. Do the work yourself and just have them do the final hook ups and it's cheap as chips (assuming you're close the the main cables of course).Looks like its normally £3500 - £5500 for most people +VAT
https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/upgr...
When I first wanted to do it they said I was not allowed to do it myself etc. etc. but just ask them to put that in writing and they soon back down... they just want to try to scam you a little at first to see if you bite.
Speed1283 said:
Agree with others that Hydrogen is probably going to play a role in heavier vehicle/transport modes, but I'm yet to be convinced for passenger cars, but I'm not against it. I think the new Mirai looks nice, much better than the previous generation and it will be interesting to see if Toyota sell many, I understand Japan itself is very much interested in hydrogen so toyota may have a domestic market at least.
I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
The Alstom iLint hydrogen fuel cell train is being sold and used on the continent now. I'm in the rail industry and if the government is serious about getting rid of diesel trains beyond 2040 then I foresee hydrogen will have a roll to play on certain routes. Electrification is obviously the main solution, but in some parts of Scotland, the north, and other rural/branch lines electrification may not be economical, additionally there is the visual aspect of electrification which may spoil views etc. The problem is, even with hydrogen the range isn't there yet, 4-600 miles seems to be possible but many existing diesel trains can achieve 2000 miles between fills. It would mean a change in operations, basically fill ups would need to be daily rather than 2-4 days. Higher pressure tanks may help, but are more costly and more difficult to get through approvals.
All of the battery trains I've seen details of need sections of the line electrifying to keep charging them as they go. If you go by the GWEP costs it's billions to part electrify all the remaining diesel lines in the UK. That's BEFORE you cost in the battery/electric rolling stock!
Think of:
All the planning.
And all the time.
And all the civil engineering.
And all the electrical distribution work.
And the objections and campaigns, spoiling the countryside etc etc.
The first hydrogen iLint ran with the use of a mobile modular hydrogen filling station before even getting a permanent hydrogen filling point!
Speed, correct me please, you may know better being in the biz.
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